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Comment by AnIdiotOnTheNet | Hacker News Reader

> I'm saying the tools are not weird if you understand them

No, they are still weird. They are only not weird if you've become accustomed to the weirdness.

I primarily develop on Windows, and when I come to Linux to work on things I am astonished to find that Linux developers think nothing of using upwards of half a dozen different languages to build one thing. CMake, autoconf, shell, and python all being used to build a single C++ program is weird and unnecessary. If you don't think so I submit you've merely become accustomed to doing things in this incredibly weird way!

PS: Windows has its own developer tendencies that are weird and unnecessary, but I will at least readily admit that about them.

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I think a lot of this thread is people’s biases from what they are used to. I’m one of those guys who started on the command line and lived on the command line most of his life. I couldn’t imagine a more productive environment! I consider a bunch of xterms running vi to be the pinnacle of IDEs. But I did two brief stints at Windows shops and just couldn’t get really productive. The guy next to me who was scared of the command line and never went outside Visual Studio? He wasn’t stupid, he just had a different lineage and got accustomed to a different environment and workflow. One is not inherently better than the other.

That said, if you are a modern web developer, you just have to understand the command line. You have to know what /usr/local/bin is. You have to know how to install your toolchain. It’s inconvenient, but it’s table stakes. I don’t think it’s reasonable to say “Hey! I’m used to GUIs so people programming on the command line are wrong and I shouldn’t need to know about /usr/local/bin“

I think it is perfectly reasonable to question whether all of that is necessary just to program stuff for the web.

“Just” to program stuff for the web? Web development is a complicated and amazing feat of engineering! The fact that you can write some code on your machine to make any pretty graphic and maze of pages you want and it will run in this thing we call a browser that pretty much anyone in the world can also run even if they are on Linux, windows, android, iOS, or any other number operating systems not to mention hardware! Think of all the layers of abstraction and code that is necessary to have millions of combinations of hardware + software all show the same thing! It’s amazing how simple it is to do web development! The fact that it is doable to set up a website in an afternoon that is accessible all over the world is ASTONISHING.

This delusion that the web is an amazing feat of engineering is frankly astonishing to me. It is constantly broken and basically entirely relies on a single browser engine controlled entirely by one of the largest organizations on the planet. It has well known security footguns at every turn.

It isn't even unprecedented. Way back in the 90s Another World used a bytecode VM for portability between hardware platforms. It ran on a whole lot of them and had input, graphics, and sound. Before that Infocom used a VM for its text adventures that was ported to many platforms. P-Code existed before that. The modern web browser, and web code, is a jankier, significantly more complicated, design-by-intertia/committee/def-facto-monopoly hybrid monstrosity. It's a document viewer with incoherent bits glued on until it kinda almost works like an application platform.

> Think of all the layers of abstraction and code that is necessary to have millions of combinations of hardware + software all show the same thing!

Not that f'ing many if you didn't engineer your VM like a blind monkey! Cross platform VMs are not a new idea, at all, and that's essentially what the modern web is, only it's the most Frankenstein version of that idea ever conceived.

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