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Comment by square_usual | Hacker News Reader

I know it's from Kuo, but these leaks don't pass the smell test for me. It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove them from the higher end versions. It makes even less sense to add more ports which aren't USB-C, as the bits about MagSafe and no dongles imply. Further, I don't understand what is meant by "iPhone 12 like" non-curvy design - I have a 2018 MBP 15", and the sides of this thing are pretty flat and not curved.

I mean, these features sound like a dream come true, but I'm having a hard time believing them.

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> It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove them from the higher end versions.

Well keep in mind that the first generation Arm MacBooks are basically the same old Intel laptops with their guts replaced. The next generation is probably going to be a completely new design.

Exactly, Thats how they did it before. First revision is the same as the old Macs with the new Arch, then once they are happy with everything they create a whole new design.

But there were old gen Intel 13" MBPs without the touch bar. They added those into the M1 macs that replaced those old models. Clearly, they could simply have... not, if they were indeed thinking of removing the touchbar entirely.

Last Intel MacBook Pro generation before M1 had all TouchBar

But why didn't they revive the 2018 version of the Intel MBP that didn't have the TouchBar? It would have fit perfectly as it was also a two-port model. Maybe it has to do with the keyboard being broken in the 2018 model, but (to this layman) it sounds easier to fix that than to add support for the TouchBar on Apple Silicon for a single (!) temporary hardware model.

Now they have to keep that TouchBar code around in AppKit even after they inevitably drop Intel support. Extremely curious decision.

i'd wager it's either a hardware requirement (reusing existing components) to not have to build a different design prior to a full refresh with the new arch, or kind of a trial run for Apple to see how many would prefer a slightly cheaper design without the touchbar. The differences of the Pro vs Air are quite minimal. Where I do like the fanless design, I was concerned of thermal concerns on the Air, but there was no way that I'll ever buy a touchbar product from Apple ever again, so I took a shot with the Air. Pleasantly surprised with heat/energy/battery, and couldn't be happier to have the physical F key row back. M1 Air is hands down the best MacBook I've used since the 2015 MacBook Pro.

Looking at the design of the iPads and iPhones starting with the 12 it seems clear that there's been a change in design decisions at Apple.

There'd been a drive to remove ports and to make devices as thin as possible, even if it meant losing functionality (no SD slots, USB-A ports, shorter battery life) or increasing complexity (dongles, battery packs).

That seems to be reversing to some degree. Whether this was all Jony Ive or not, it's nice to see more of a balance. It should be possible to have a functional device but not include every I/O port under the sun.

Perhaps the new MacBook Pro supports USB-C charging AND wireless charging? MagSafe in this context could be referring to wireless charging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe

The quote from Kuo specifically mentions MagSafe charging connector design, but he could have mistakenly assumed his source was still referring to the wired connector if they mentioned MagSafe.

Curious about changes to I/O ports. I would expect additional (more than two) USB-C ports, but unsure which I/O types may be considered a "standard" need for pro users at this point. Perhaps video output and/or legacy USB?

The touch bar is visually appealing and likely great for most consumers, but the bar has not been as functional as physical function keys during my time touch-typing/ programming due to lack of tactile feedback. I frequently have to look at the bar, else I tap the wrong button. I often trigger the bar unintentionally while hovering over number keys. I am thankful the M1 Pro has an Escape key. I would be very likely to upgrade to a higher end MacBook Pro to have physical function keys again.

Wirelessly charging a laptop would waste so much energy. I really hope this isn’t what they’re planning.

I'm not sure that's true.

I believe modern wireless chargers are around 75% to 85% efficient.

That sounds bad at first, but I believe most ac-dc charging bricks are in the 80% to 90% efficiency range, so it's actually not much worse at all.

And if it really is magsafe, the "secret sauce" there is the magnets will align things almost perfectly every time avoiding unaligned charging coils.

But aren't you going AC->DC->wireless? So it would stack

There's still a charging brick powering the wireless charger so isn't the 75-85% stacked on top of the 80-90%? That gives you 56-77% efficiency.

ah good point, I'm not sure what I was thinking!

But will users know or care?

I mean...an extra 50 watts maybe? Not great but doesn’t seem like a huge deal.

How hot does a 50-watt incandescent lightbulb get? That's what an extra 50 watts of wasted power will feel like.

My house is cold, the extra heat is welcome here. I only have electric heat.

Unless you live in the tropics, electric heat is borderline unconscionable with regards to climate change.

I use solar power. Also, in nearby San Jose, California, they have banned NG in all new construction except commercial or multi family residences taller than 3 stories.

what's the conscionable alternative?

Wear a sweater.

Why is that? Your electricity might be from renewable resources. Or a non-renewable that is more efficient in total than using gas directly.

My choices are grid, solar, propane. I only use propane as emergency power backup.

It will probably be physical keys with screens in them. As seen in this patent. https://www.macrumors.com/2020/12/29/apple-researching-keybo...

Mag safe is going to be on the charging cable and not the computer. Like on old game consoles with wired controllers.

I have the feeling that it's not going to be on the charging cable. Benson Leung often comments that extensions and modifications to USB-C cables are not compliant with the USB-C standard, which Apple helped write.

What I could imagine though, is if the charger itself incorporates MagSafe.

I was under the impression that the "no connectors/extensions" wasn't so much around power delivery, but around the high data rates (40 Gbps) and signal integrity.

A charger cable, that only does PD, could have a magnetic break in it without issues.

I run my usb-c macbook pro with a 3rd party magnetic charge only usb-c cable without issues so yes, it's already been done.

However, as opposed to magsafe there's a tiny dongle that stays in the usb-c port. Also, the magnet is weaker than in the old apple magsafes.

In my opinion, MagSafe 2 set the gold standard in weak magnets.

In my experience, MagSafe 2 did a fine job at staying attached when pulled directly from the port, and came unstuck easily (as intended by design) when pulled from an angle.

I don't remember ever having problems with the charger popping out when it wasn't supposed to. But I also always used it on a desk, rather than sitting it on my lap.

No no no. I have my old magsafe 2 laptop and my new usb-c laptop with 3rd party magnetic. Trust me, Magsafe 2 is stronger.

I use these magnetic USB-C adpaters on my phone, it works fine for charging and data transfer:

https://a.aliexpress.com/_BSorDx

I haven't tried more extensive tests (e.g. video out) but I don't see any real reason why Apple couldn't make a more official (i.e. USB-C certified) version. As the sister comment says, if it's for power only then it is simpler.

I'd imagine rather than adapters like this, you would plug in a cable that has a magnetic joint somewhere near the end that can 'break' if pulled.

The main issue of this is just like with touchbar and similar solutions - power users don't look at the keyboard, so the usefulness will be minimal.

And power users here doesn't mean only IT people, but anyone who uses some application all the time for some kind of work. Someone processing photos may not be able to touch type but they'll learn the keyboard shortcuts for their stuff in no time.

Even professionals who don't learn to touch-type should at least use an external screen if they use a computer all day, at which point they'll likely use an external keyboard without a TouchBar again.

They would be physical buttons, I don't understand your comment.

Why bother with screens on the keys if no one (read: power users) don't look at the keyboard

Personally I think key with screens on them sounds interesting / novel / fun, at least for a week or two, maybe longer.

A lot of power users look at their keyboards. Touch typists are a very small minority, even among power users. At least pure touch typists (people who only touch type).

And these computers are not purely for power users.

I wonder how many folks touch-type with the function keys. I touch-type, but I still need to look down to use the function keys.

If they're grouped in blocks of 4 it's reasonably doable, especially for the ones at the edges of the blocks (for example F4 and F5 are popular buttons for IDEs and even browsers or other common applications).

I used to be able to touch type the speaker volume and mute F keys. With the slider or volume mute buttons, I often have a hard time hitting them correctly on the Touch Bar. This is after having it for years.

I think HN is a bit unfairly biased against the touchbar, since it serves almost zero purpose for programming work.

However, it's quite handy when doing multimedia work with applications that integrate with the touchbar (Logic Pro, Final Cut Pro, Photoshop)

Is this your experience or your assumption?

I was personally very excited when they announced the touchbar but having lived with it for 5 years now, I hate it. And I do a lot of media work, mostly in Ableton Live but also Adobe Lightroom and others.

I just bought a new Macbook Air and I was very happy that the feature of not having the bar was cheaper as it was something I would have gladly paid money for.

For photoshop, which I'll admit I use infrequently, it's very handy.

I also use Ableton and Lightroom a reasonable amount (neither are my day job though), and am constantly left wishing that they integrated with the touchbar. I have a midi controller that I use for sliding controls in both when at my desk, but I don't take it when I'm out and about, which is where having the ability to adjust analog controls (sliders/dials) with the touchbar would be incredibly useful.

I don’t hate it, I just ignore it. Most of the time my laptop is closed and attached to my monitor, so it’s unavailable. On the rare occasions I use it as a laptop, I might use the Touch Bar to adjust the volume, but not much else, if anything.

It's not completely useless for programming: for example, I use the button to stop an app in the debugger pretty often.

> It's not completely useless for programming: for example, I use the button to stop an app in the debugger pretty often.

The hypothetical advantages of that usecase are negated by the lack of physical F-keys, which are critical to start/stop/step through code.

Those were F keys before, which I could put my finger on and use without having to hunt for the correct featureless spot on the Touch Bar every time I needed to step.

I spend hours a day in FCP and Photoshop. The ONLY thing it's useful for is scrubbing, but even there, I have other tools that are more helpful and don't take away F keys I can use as macros.

Many times more useful are tactile programmable keys like what I get on an Elgato Stream Deck, or other dedicated hardware. The touch bar is useless since it's one solid strip. Creatives don't like staring at their keyboards either.

It's for people who look at the keyboard when they type. I think it would be a godsend for the low end machines. Instead they put it on the high end machines and left it off the entry level ones -- completely backwards.

I personally never used the F keys for anything so don't really care if they are there or not (I use them just for brightness and mute) but the Touch Bar was too sensitive. And while I initially thought it would be cool to have an extra status display, a display someplace nobody ever looks is pretty useless.

It's for people who use the keyboard for more then typing! That's the point of the OP you responded to.

Computers are for more than essays and coding.

True - but multimedia folks can buy separate controls for their specific needs; (for example, I use a separate volume control knob; just to have a handy way to control volume; mainly because my external keyboard's volume buttons require fn-key which is annoying when I need to respond quickly to change volume or mute.

So the touch bar might be great for SOME purposes in multimedia, not for others; but a variety of VERY CHEAP peripherals are available for these purposes - no need for a one-size-fits-all integrated approach.

It's for people who look at the keyboard when they type.

That's a pretty narrow view.

I've been a touch typer for many decades now (had to pass a minimum WPM score on an IBM Selectric to get my journalism degree), and I find the touchbar quite useful.

The problem is that you have to customize it. And the tools Apple supplies are inadequate.

In my case, I have a bunch of "keys" on the touchbar that trigger various macros.

Building a major change for one small set of users ("people who look at the keyboard") isn't how Apple does things.

apple was never consistent - had they brought Touch Bar (and Touch ID) to external keyboard, I would have had more reason to adjust to it.

For me, the problem is that programs have a habit of putting buttons that do important things in the natural resting area of where my hands go.

Zoom, for instance, puts the mic, camera, and share desktop buttons right where f1-f3 should go. If they were actual keys it wouldn't matter, but since they're touch sensitive, I have to suddenly be very conscious of where I rest my hands or else risk sending content I do not want to a meeting.

MagSafe on the cable would work poorly because people would leave the laptop end in the port and stick it in their backpack and bump and ruin it. Apple wouldn't go for a design like that (same reason they have the charging port on the bottom of the mouse - people would leave it plugged in all the time and wear out the cable/port)

I don't recall old consoles having magsafe wires.

They weren't magsafe but they had breakaway cables that would disconnect if someone tripped on it.

I guess "old consoles" to me is SNES, etc

Yes, try removing coax by tripping over it. You're more likely to remove your foot doing it.

It seems clear to me that they're going to incorporate the exact same Mag Safe charger as they did on the iPhone 12. Same magnetic paddle, but it will attach to the lid or the back or something.

Hope it's the bottom. Then you can "dock" your MBP without any latches. Some people might make a desk or tabletop that would allow the On the screen back would look bizarre.

Now imagine if MagSafe could also be a data channel...

The only problem I see with your concept:

A single iPhone MagSafe charger pushes 15w on a great day. A MBP is going to draw about four times that.

In the case of the 16", which draws 96W at full bore these days, more than six times that. I've heard speculation that the new MBPs might not wirelessly charge themselves... but could have an integrated wireless charger in the palmrests for iphones/etc.

Kuo has a remarkable track record of being right, but he's not perfect. Currently he's ~78.2% accurate.

https://appletrack.org/ming-chi-kuo/

Looking through that list, there's several predictions about late 2020 that didn't happen and most predictions he's made were far enough out to still be pending. In addition, lots of "correct guesses" were pretty basic things.

Not saying this won't come to be, but his actual accuracy where it counts seems much lower than indicated.

In his defence I would say that is pretty close to perfect.

His sources isn't some made up contact from within Apple like all those Youtubers, or leaks from China WeiBo and then turn into some news. His sources are from Supply Chain, and if you look at it from that perspective it has been pretty dead accurate.

For Example, most of his Red ( Wrong ) are either Apple Release Date, or Pricing. Both are those are unpredictable by Supply Chain. Apple could change their pricing strategy at any min. But those Release Date and Pricing were derived from possible Production Schedule and Total BOM cost reduction. Both have been insanely accurate.

There are other derived conclusion. Like Longer battery life, which was derived from having lager Battery capacity and better Display energy efficiency, except Apple implemented other features so battery life stays flat.

Things like iPhone having same water resistance, from his point of view none of the water resistance steps had any make over. So no change in water resistance from 2018 were exactly correct. It is just that Apple felt confidence enough the same process could now be advertise with better water resistance capacity. i.e They were too conservative with the iPhone XS water resistance claim.

Not even sure why Pro Display XDR going Mini-LED in 2019 is suggested as wrong either.

Of course there are things he would be wrong. Especially those small volume products. With iPhone you cant really hide, after all there are hundreds of companies working to make sure a product shipping a 100M unit annual volume. Leaks in supply chain are bound to happen.

He did specifically mention high power charging on Non-USB C.

One of the problem with High Power, USB-C charging is the higher probability of frying the MacBook. As it has been since post 2015 MacBook Pro. From a reliability stand point this isn't any good at all. The insane amount of MacBook Pro with this problem on Louis Rossmann channel

Not all USB-C Cable are capable of charging up to 100W, most are only 28W. You need specific 100W, thicker cable to charge it. Of course HN have no problem with this but majority of people will charge it with whatever USB-C cable they have lying around. i.e Smartphone low power cable.

But HN seems to value charging everything with USB-C over everything else. And seems to take a world view anyone who dont know enough about USB-C cable or do not buy all USB-C High Power Cable as "mis-informed" if I had to word it politely.

>And the sides of this thing are pretty flat and not curved.

He meant the top and the bottom. Currently being slightly curved on the lip and the bottom edge of the machine.

> I know it's from Kuo, but these leaks don't pass the smell test for me. It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove them from the higher end versions

What if the new model had a touch screen?

or the trackpad was a full 'touch' screen?

I think the first batch of M1 macs should be seen as continuity machines, they made the processor the only differentiating factor in order to make the transition trivial for consumers.

About the sides, i was confused at first but I think the idea is that they will do what they did to the ipad. Compare the first ipad to the ipad pro, the pro lies flat on the table but the first one (and to some extent all ipads before the 2018 pro) has a curved bottom like a boat.

They probably added them to the lower end models to dump the parts stock as they knew the next generation will not have touchbars.

He means the lid surfaces on the top & bottom not the curved corners

I wonder if removing the Touch Bar has something to do with prepping up the line for gaming. I personally don't dislike the Touch Bar except when I'm playing video games, and Apple Silicon is on a trajectory to be able to run games on a Mac with fairly decent graphics.

The fact that it even plays Tomb Raider at 24FPS is mind boggling with integrated graphics

For non-curvy design think "Pixelbook" which has two totally flat halves that come together with a cool hinge. Not saying that's where they're going, but that's a modern laptop design that reminds me more of an iPhone 12

Ah, I see. The lid and bottom of the MBP have a slight convexity, which they could flatten out to make it more like an iPhone 12.

> It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove them from the higher end versions.

Perhaps the idea is that those who buy the base model - regular consumers - like the touchbar, and those who buy the higher-end versions, that is, professionals - don't.

I'm sure some pricing specialist figured that out. Say what you want about Apple, but their sales department knows how to squeeze as much revenue from their customers as they can.

But then why add the TouchBar to the MBP and not the MacBook Air instead? I actually think that the TouchBar would be more popular if it was a consumer thing instead of a "Pro" differentiator.

I can't be the only professional who ordered a cheaper M1 MacBook Air specifically because I want to avoid the TouchBar. If the pricing specialist is playing 4D chess then I don't get it.

I would like to know as well, but whatever they're doing it's working.

Bloomberg is matching the rumors.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-15/apple-mac...

Sides are flat, but there's a curve into the screen and the bottom. There's already a sharp edge in that transition, though, which.. is sharp. I'm not sure it would be wise to turn the device into a total brick with 90 degree edges all around.

If they release a new form factor I would imagine the current “starter” M1 MacBook Pro with touch bar will be retired so this won’t be a problem.

Perhaps they’ll make Touch Bar an optional extra.

> remove them from the higher-end versions

The 14" MBP will be the new 13", so if that rumor is true, it will be the end of Touch Bar.

That would be sad, I really like the touchbar, and I've seen people use it as makeshift sliders for audio and a mini-midi keyboard, and the context-sensitive recommendations are so much more useful to me than F-keys, I'm just way too lazy do memorize multiple layers for different apps. I really do hope they don't go back to plain F-keys only.

Who is this guy Kuo anyhow. He always make predictions one year before they almost always become real. Where does he work?

He's an analyst at a financial services company, I think TF International Securities currently.

Yes, but did you ever seen his analysis as first party?

Kuo usually uses sources from the asian supply chain.

https://www.macrumors.com/guide/ming-chi-kuo/

He has a pretty good track record.

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