Very cool! Also I’d hope to see Lyme in the mix. It’s so pervasive and creates all kinds of weird dietary and nervous system issues.
I am not an expert, but I think it would be amiss to omit the Lyme disease controversy with these statements. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4477530/
Lyme disease has a simple antibiotic treatment. The Lyme serology test has high false-positive rate. There might be many people who believe they have Lyme disease therefore sadly miss out on their actual diagnosis.
>Even if CLD lacks biological legitimacy, its importance as a phenomenon can be monumental to the individual patient. This is because many if not most patients who believe they have this condition are suffering, in many cases for years. Many have undergone frustrating, expensive, and ultimately fruitless medical evaluations, and many have become quite disaffected with a medical system that has failed to provide answers, let alone relief.
>Many patients referred for Lyme disease are ultimately found to have a rheumatologic or neurologic diagnosis. Rheumatologic diagnoses commonly misdiagnosed as Lyme disease include osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, degenerative diseases of the spine, and spondyloarthropathies. Some patients are found to have neurologic diseases, including multiple sclerosis, demyelinating diseases, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, neuropathies, and dementia. Some CLD advocates have argued that these various conditions are simply manifestations of Lyme disease, but these hypotheses are untenable.
Except that one thing... the chronic Lyme could very well caused by an autoimmune side-effect (this is among the most serious explanations), in which case I don't think the vaccine would help.
Finding lingering bacteria would be the right call. Autopsy or biopsy. And then get better testing, less "false positive".
With no specific (set of) symptoms, symptom based evidence seems inherently weak.
It proposes the idea for the mechanism of vitamin D supplementation to better certain conditions in the short term, but worsen health long term, by acting as a immune suppressant similar to other steroids.
Here are some excerpts:
> "Consequently, if patients with autoimmune disease succeed in killing bacteria associated with their disease state, their symptoms should be expected to escalate, at least in the short-term, as cytokines and endotoxins are generated[28]. Conversely, in cases in which the immune response has been suppressed by supplementation with an immunosuppressant such as the secosteroid 25-D, one would expect to see fewer clinical manifestations of disease in the short-term, yet more advanced disease in the long-term. At a certain point, depending on the clinical symptom or physiological markers of disease, patients supplementing with vitamin D would be expected to approach a "crossover point" when additional reduction of the immune response is eclipsed by the advancing disease (Figure 2). This outcome has been demonstrated in longitudinal studies, with studies on sicker or older patients taking less time to realize the effect."
> "The Iowa Women's Health study showed vitamin D intake seemed to protect against breast cancer in the first five years after it was taken. However, the effect began to reverse between years five and ten and was completely lost after year ten, trending towards an opposing effect[29]. Lappe et al published work, conducted over four years, that seemingly showed vitamin D might lower the incidence of colorectal cancer[30]. In a similar study looking at a larger cohort and over a longer period of time, Rossouw et al found no such effect[31]."
Why can't we have nice things, eh?!
Since, vitamin D is frequently advertised as the cure all supplement, I also want to mention "antagonistic pleiotropy" as something to keep in mind, as conceptual "immunization":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antagonistic_pleiotropy_hypoth...
Edit: OMG. I just realized, it may very well be possible that winter's VD deficiency may be needed for good health to some extent, if the body is indeed more active against lingering pathogens. This may also explain the COVID19 and VD connection, as steroids have been shown beneficial as well, maybe it's the immune suppressant quality of VD, which turns out beneficial!
Because thus vitamin D would be a great solution against autoimmune diseases, among which are a lot of the cases under the umbrella Chronic Lyme Disease (it is supposed that the borreliosis can provoke an autoimmune dysfunction that continues beyond the disappearance of the bacteria).
A lot of cases of chronic fatigue would be treated by vitamin D, which is a huge news.
They say the VD supplementation is comparable to steroid treatment. I don't see what's to be enthusiastic about, tbh.
In the case where the Borrelia are just hiding and in a latent state, then all is a question of comparating the dynamics of the two sides: the time required by the Borrelia to wake up and proliferate, vs the time required by the vitamin D to reduce the autoimmunity to the point where the body is again desensitized about itself.
A short treatment of vitamin D would be sufficient to cure the immune problem and not long enough to allow the bacteria to take over. (Hypothetically. This is just a possibility and has to be researched, but this is exactly why I am enthusiastic.)
Also, contrary to steroidal treatment, vitamin D bolsters a part of the immunity (lymphocytes T), even if it dampens an other part. So, it would restore a balance which is lost in case of defective aquiered immunity.
I don't see how the linked article contributes to your argument.
Tho, it's an interesting read and a warning to those supplementing vitamin D like it's the solution to everything.
Malingering exists, but the profile of the chronic Lyme patients you speak about is not at all the one of persons in need of being nursed by the society like babies...
Just imagine you go to the doctor and all you say is dismissed because he thinks you make it up? What a despair you would be in! Speaking of a closed logical system your physician would be in! The same kind as the ones making famous conspiracy theories.
"I had <insert illness> and I was not taken seriously for <X> years" is such a recurrent theme that it is very concerning.
Just recently, the "long covid" was very much mocked by smug doctors. Imagine the distress of the patients.
You're wrong, these patients just failback on Lyme as a default and would be very pleased to discover the real causes of their ailments if it was found. To suppose that people are that much irrational and to generalize to this extent is... sorry but I am shocked.
In medicine, a golden rule is always assume your patient is honest in describing his problems.
Finally, contrary to what you said, the problem is not outside of the real world. Just as a link was proved between some tickborne pathogens and red meat allergy, you cannot exclude that one day a scientific team would prove that under some conditions the borreliosis provokes an autoimmune illness. And such a study would most likely point towards chemical markers to look for in blood and, at last, be able to diagnose it with certitude.
I have absolutely no doubt that their problems are real. I fully believe that these patients are honest and that they really suffer, and they need treatment. I do not believe at all that they are "making it up".
But they don't suffer from "chronic Lyme".
There's just no evidence that it's a real thing. But just like with electromagnetic hypersensitivity, Morgellon's disease, "Wind Turbine syndrome", or any of a legion of "diseases" from medical history, you can't treat them medically if there's no evidence they exist. It would be malpractice for doctors to prescribe real drugs for fictitious syndromes, and it wouldn't do anything to convince their patients either.
If these patients get a diagnostic, even if it is not Lyme, I am sure that would help them very much.
It is true that the medicine is more than often not yet capable of giving satisfying diagnostics, and that misdiagnostic is counterproductive...
However I remember I saw some sound studies on biofilm protein immunity that was triggering autoimmune disorder, in relation to the borreliosis. This is why I had this strong opinion. I will report here if I manage to retrieve the exact reference.
CLD is real and even if it’s over diagnosed, it still doesn’t take away the many real diagnoses that exist and a vaccine would eliminate its potential permanently.
If you are posting in good faith...more recent studies are centered around making the findings in the European strain viable in the American one.
>CLD is real
Well, I believe the right thing to do is to at least mention that these are controversial statements.
This is common in north eastern state rural areas and has been getting steadily worse.
We are constantly doing tick checks on the kids after one of our friends related that she suffered lifelong issues after being bitten by a tick 40 years ago in our neighborhood.
A vaccine would be a huge relief.
An example: https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2019/three-antibiot...
Even people here in Australia passionately declare that they have Lyme disease (without overseas travel). Our ticks don't even carry Lyme disease...
Almost all those citations are outdated studies from almost 20 years ago and one recent from 2016 where patients _did_ improve with antibiotics according to the data but the abstract concludes they didn't. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If they have to ignore recent studies and go back 20 years to "prove" antibiotics don't work then what does that tell us about bias in medicine?
2018: >Conclusions: Using multiple corroborative detection methods, we showed that patients with persistent Lyme disease symptoms may have ongoing spirochetal infection despite antibiotic treatment, similar to findings in non-human primates. The optimal treatment for persistent Borrelia infection remains to be determined. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324539470_Persisten...
2019: >We collected data from an online survey of 200 of our patients, which evaluated the efficacy of dapsone (diaminodiphenyl sulfone, ie, DDS) combined with other antibiotics and agents that disrupt biofilms for the treatment of chronic Lyme disease/post-treatment Lyme disease syndrome (PTLDS). ... Conclusion DDS CT decreased eight major Lyme symptoms severity and improved treatment outcomes among patients with chronic Lyme disease/PTLDS and associated coinfections. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6388746/
2020: > This study, which drew on a sample of over 3500 patients ... Approximately half (53%) of the patients in the study reported some improvement, and more than a third (35%) were “high responders” to antibiotic treatment, underscoring the value of large samples, subgroup analysis, and real-world evidence as standard components of Lyme disease treatment studies. This spectrum of improvement is consistent with reports for most pharmaceuticals due to patient treatment response variation https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/8/4/383
They only test for Borrelia Burgdorferi. We know there are several more out there that cause Lyme symptoms. Borrelia
japonica – Discovered 1994
andersonii – Discovered 1995
lusitaniae – Discovered 1997
bissettii – Discovered 1998
spielmanii – Discovered 2006
californiensis – Discovered 2007
mayonii – Discovered 2016
I'm betting we can add the Australian variant to that list in the future.
It's not like this is without controversy; it's an active political battle.
Very different than "putting down" terminally ill people on their own choice and action.
Tho, maybe similar to the eugenic endeavors of the past. I hope you're not implying that's what's in debate again.
Depending on where you live, you can have humans "put to sleep" as well.
It is legal in 9 US states, Canada, parts of Australlia, and probably otherplaces as well.
> You can also keep a dog on a leash.
Some people keep their children on a leash as well.
I wonder about the trolley problem that is medical testing requirements.
It seems like we, as a society, would tend to never want to pull the lever to save more at the cost of risking a few. Social and contractual liability makes it a bad trade.
Acceptable risk is very low which can, paradoxically, cause more death and discomfort.
It would be nice to see a greater awareness of the tradeoffs. These things tend to get emotional, though, so not much gets done.
Older medicine is filled with supposed cures to issues that cause issues down the road. We also have countless medical trials that show no positive effects on the disease it's trying to cure, and outright ill effects (both short term and long term).
If we _did_ have visibility and a good understanding of the effects of stuff, you would think that Covid, of all things, would push at least some people more down this argument you are making.
But basically everyone involved (including many many people who had extreme incentives to push a vaccine through) stuck to the trial discussions.
I do understand the "Extenuating circumstances" argument. But this sort of massive generality reeks of Dunning-Krueger.
If you want to play Jesus here, then I’m sure the rest of society will support you.
Aa mentioned in the article, it's very possible the vaccine triggers a rare, genetically associated autoimmune disorder normally caused by Lyme disease. It was also released roughly concurrently with at least one vaccine that was legitimately withdrawn for safety reasons.
Compared to, say, the covid-19 vaccines, or the MMR vaccines, I find the public hesitation more understandable. It's not like a disease with an especially high mortality rate or one that's spread person to person.
Not saying the push to shame it out of existence was right, since it sounds like the benefits outweighed the risks at least for some people, but there's a lot to unpack. Definitely worth a read.
But if you begin saying you need shots to go in Poland, it's maybe not going to be accepted as easily as for tropical countries...
BTW the side effects of the shots we give to go to French Guyane is something to behold. Roommate was literally covered with red dots and it itched like hell.
In this case the vaccine's purpose is defeated, as the real life-spoiler is the chronic Lyme. Acute Lyme is well treated by the antibiotics.
Btw. the molecular mimicry of the spike protein may cause autoimmunity as well. Time will tell if that only applies to SARS2 or the vaccine as well.
No source: There was a paper on a model for cross reacting to normal cell proteins in /r/COVID19, but I am on mobile and blocked reddit everywhere now. Should be easy to find.
> First, the vaccine efficacy of <80% meant that 20% of fully vaccinated individuals could still get Lyme disease [20]. Second, achieving full protection required three vaccine doses given at the time of the initial dose and 1 month and 12 months after the initial dose. Third, the vaccine safety and efficacy database lacked tests in young children, a population at high risk of developing Lyme disease [3]. Also the vaccine was effective only against the predominant North American Borrelia strain without necessarily conferring protection against international subspecies [16, 22]. Finally, uncertainty about the length of vaccine-induced immunity implied that recipients might need booster vaccine doses as often as every year to prevent waning immunity.
The real underlying malicious behavior here was from the lawyers who actively recruited and fomented anti-vax culture...
> The final agreement included over 1 million dollars in legal fees for the prosecuting lawyers, but provided no financial compensation to the ‘vaccine victims’.