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Comment by djhworld | Hacker News Reader

I'm not sure what the cost of living is like in Berlin but here in London it's astronomical.

People might have some degree of infrastructure to build a start up down here (especially around the Old Street area) and there's plenty of office space but the problems lie in the fact that if you want to employ young graduates (or people with a few years of experience) you're going to struggle to pay them without adequate investment.

A 1 bedroom property down here will cost you roughly £1200 a month + bills (£1300 - £1400 in total) and then travel in zones 1 and 2 will cost you £106 a month for a travelcard

If you're going to pay a youngster £30k a year then they're going to be forking out 70-80% of their income on accommodation which is absurd.

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Here's the "Mietspiegel" for Berlin (geographic overview of cost of living, click download link on the right to retrieve as PDF): http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/wohnen/mietspiegel/

People who want to avoid getting fleeced by landlords should consider becoming a member of the local "Mieterverein". It usually costs around 60 Euro per year to be a member and they will give you free legal counsel whenever you have trouble with your landlord: http://www.berliner-mieterverein.de/

Berlin's advantage is not just the rents but also the law of tenancy. Germany's laws are tenant-friendly, whereas British laws are -- from what I've read -- landlord-friendly.

That's helpful if you're a young person looking for accomodation or office space to found a company and want to avoid taking too many risks.

In example, period of cancellation may not be more than 3 months in Germany, security deposit may not exceed 3 months' rent, etc.

> It's not just the rents but also the law of tenancy. Germany's laws are tenant-friendly, whereas British laws are -- from what I've read -- landlord-friendly.

Not sure it actually matters. Zürich is probably as tenant-friendly as Berlin, but the rent is as high or higher than London. I think what matters more is the state of the market: Berlin still have lots of real estate available (vs 0.07% of vacant apartments in Zurich).

Der Spiegel among others had these horrendous stories about being a tenant in London: http://www.spiegel.de/unispiegel/studium/0,1518,723665,00.ht... http://www.spiegel.de/unispiegel/studium/0,1518,498084,00.ht...

I truly admire the courage of anyone taking a risk and starting a company under these conditions.

The first article is inaccurate, even in London twin rooms are uncommon, it's much more an American concept than a British one.

For someone looking for somewhere to live London's main problem isn't price, it's that the flatshare market moves crazily fast.

Meh, twin rooms are NOT common in the US. If you do what the girl in the article did and you are looking to share a flat in the US, the expectation would be that you would have your own bedroom at the very least.

It's about a third of that in Berlin. I have a (nice, freshly renovated, wooden floors, high ceilings, new appliances, balcony) two bedroom place about a 5-10 minute walk from our office in one of the cool parts of town (dozens of restaurants and bars within a 15 minute walk) and pay EUR 580/month. My co-founder and I shared the place for a couple years when we were getting going.

To give you an example of rent related to income:

I live and work in Berlin and my rent is about 25% of my income after taxes. I have about 100 square meters, two balconies and a lift (third floor) in a quiet pre-war (Altbau) building (redeveloped 2005) with a big playground right in front of it. It's about 6km to my work (20 minutes by bicycle) in Berlin Mitte (the east center of Berlin).

I'm glad someone else thinks this too. In Nottingham a 2-bedroom terraced house in a good area can be rented for £500 a month and in a bad area £300, a whole year's bus travel is £350, or £199 for 100 days of your choosing, and there are extensive cycle lanes. There' s lots of fun stuff going on , varied nightlife. Its under 2 hours on the train to London when you need to go. To me this is the sort of place people should be doing startups, not London. £18k salary here would get you a reasonable existence for a few years while in a startup company. It seems to me to start a startup one has to have some basic business sense which means one understands balancing ingoings and outgoings. Therefore it seems a bit flawed to try to start a company somewhere so insanely expensive that, like you say, its employees spend 70%-80% on accommodation. Its rather important to retain key early technical staff. Not very easy for that to happen in London.

Be curious to see what sort of flat you have for £1200 a month. Must be very nice...I currently pay £1300 a month to rent a three bedroom house with a large garden. If I was willing to downsize then £900 is doable for a 2 bedroom apartment.

I happen to work at a startup near Old Street and it takes me 30 mins to get to work on the tube from the suburbs. Whilst we'd all love to live in Angel or Notting Hill, the centre of any large city is always going to be expensive.

I don't know where in London you are taking about, but I live in zone 3 in a 3 bedroom house and my mortgage is less then that...

Zone 2

Agreed, the costs of living in London (especially Zones 1 and 2) puts London in the top 20 of most expensive cities to live in the world. However, If you're going to pay a youngster £30k they will not (and should not) be expecting to live in Zones 1 and 2.

Which is my argument suggesting London isn't suitable for a youthful startup culture as many younger people will be put off from moving into the suburbs because of the costs involved.

Not sure where you're living but I'm in a lovely 3br for a bit more than that and only 20-25 mins out from Bank on the tube.

Everyone in London knows that if you don't want to pay through the nose don't live in the centre!

Most 20 something professional in London live in flatshares, typically paying between £400-£800/month.

I had a large 2 bed flat on Commercial Road towards the aldgate side for around £1200/month.

I live in a houseshare with a bunch of strangers at £675 a month.

Where I used to live I had my own place, but ever since moving down here I've had to 'downgrade' to living with people you don't really like or don't really speak to.

The fact that us young folk have to bunk up with others to make living down here affordable is an indictment of the property market in London and the UK.

I actually prefer living with friends from living alone, it has it's disadvantages, but it also has lots of social advantages.

Which is one of the reasons I chose to leave London.

My brother is in his 30s and still has to flatshare, despite getting a good developer salary in London. What's the point of working there again ?

I'm not a student any more dammit: I want my own place to come home to after a hard day's work.

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