London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups
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Another advantage is that a lot of european young people go to berlin, for example from france, U.K, holland, poland and so on. It's a city that draws the young upwardly mobile crowd, rather than the working class. So there is the sense of a diversity of ideas, and many different people doing different things. It's a city that does not feel very "german", it feels very european.
Berlin is not so great for people looking to work in the tech industry because there is no concentration of tech companies. But for self-starters, it's quite conducive.
I doubt that Berlin will really become the mecca for technology though, because I do not think it's easy to learn the german language, and in the end, Berlin is in Germany, and Germany is not very multi-cultural. London feels much free-er, English laws are much more conducive to small companies, and people already speak english.
Berlin imposes berlin on you, you have to kind of be the berlin type to like berlin, but I get the feeling, you can just be yourself in London.
Does anyone know where to find startup/programming/tech events in the berlin area? Which mailing lists to follow etc?
- Android round table every last Wednesday - Lisp round table on Thursday - Wifi hackers every Wednesday
You can "follow" their calendar: http://www.c-base.org/calender/termine.ics
Berlin is not particularly welcoming to posh types, or the kind of people who enjoy high-class exclusive nightlife. You really don't want to park your luxury car on the street.
For everyone else, I'd say Berlin is extremely free and tolerant and generally welcoming.
The outskirts are really suburban more than anything, and completely different.
but the disparate nautre of east/west berlin is one of the best things going for it. especially in the crossover areas like kreuzberg (not kreuzkoelln) and bits of mitte (that haven't been gentrified yet)
I'd actually disagree with you there. Given that English is a Germanic language, the little German I know was far easier to learn as a native English speaker than French or Japanese (the two other languages I studied for a short while).
German is diverse are as many languages, but English and French are far more diverse.
My takeaway:
* Lots of people there (no offense intended if any CH people read this) referred to the language I know as 'written German'
* Lots of people (TV news guys are kind of the only counter examples) have a _heavy_ accent if they speak what they consider de_DE (Time for an anecdote: A good local CH friend of mine told me once that he talked with a DE guy for quite a while, on his best official German level, and was told all of a sudden if he can talk German (probably considered as 'accent-free') as well).
After fighting the 'everybody speaks German in CH/AT' a bit I'd like to point to the fact that there are lots of accents and dialects that just sound like gibberish if you're not used to them. Let's leave AT/CH out of this for a moment: If I visit the northern part of Germany/the shore, if I visit the most southern places, if I go to the southwest (Platt/Bayrisch/Hessisch) and people speak 'normally' I end up understanding 50%-70%. And I didn't even mention some dialects from the east of Germany.
Actually - if people from Berlin talk fast and use the local dialect, I'm lost..
I mean, why would people be blissfully unaware of the standard form.
Oh, and at least for Swiss German: It is kinda a different language (but extremely related to the written German): It's not just an accent with some funny words, but has a slightly different grammar, too. Most glarious is the lack of most of the verb tenses in Swiss German. So pupils have to learn quite some stuff to be really fluent in written German.
And even just within Switzerland there are dialects I don't understand (as in no clue what they're talking about). People speaking these usually switch to a more conformistic pronounciation when talking to people from other areas and don't use some of the more obscure words.
And for the reasons this all exists (at least for Switzerland): It's cultivated and all kinda part of your local/national identity. Politicians who speak a "too good" written German are deemed suspicious, almost all of the local culture (theater, local movies, even most of the Swiss tv produciton ...) is in Swiss German.
[Native Swiss German speaker, here.]
Switzerland is a very specific case, I guess. The level of national pride is very high, with a very prominent political party living close to the racism edge (and crossing it every now and then), protecting the country from outside influences (contractors from i.e. Germany are not really welcome there, often seen as stealing jobs).
Add to this national pride a good amount of _local_ awareness: CH is a federal system, each 'state'(Kanton) fighting for as much independence as possible. Heck, they don't even have a real capital city [1] because they don't want one state to surpass the others. Your local region of origin seems to be much more important there.
In addition CH has 4 (erm.. 3.5?) official languages and already some 'borders' that separate parts of the country into ~mostly french/german/italian regions. You drive 5 min and every sign switches from German to French and the whole culture changes (food, lifestyle are the easiest things to spot).
And of course those people will know some English, too.
The proper spelling is the least of your worries if you want to learn German.
French, on the other hand, has significant vocabulary overlap with English and it's grammar rules are either easier to learn, or easy to fudge when speaking.
Its grammar is really close to ancient Greek, but that makes learning it no easier. Greek has three genders also, but you can usually tell the gender from the noun's suffix. In German, you have to learn the article with the word. It is one of the hardest languages I've met.
I love that essay - and he agrees with you on the gender issue:
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To continue with the German genders: a tree is male, its buds are female, its leaves are neuter; horses are sexless, dogs are male, cats are female -- tomcats included, of course; a person's mouth, neck, bosom, elbows, fingers, nails, feet, and body are of the male sex, and his head is male or neuter according to the word selected to signify it, and not according to the sex of the individual who wears it -- for in Germany all the women either male heads or sexless ones; a person's nose, lips, shoulders, breast, hands, and toes are of the female sex; and his hair, ears, eyes, chin, legs, knees, heart, and conscience haven't any sex at all. The inventor of the language probably got what he knew about a conscience from hearsay.
Now, by the above dissection, the reader will see that in Germany a man may think he is a man, but when he comes to look into the matter closely, he is bound to have his doubts; he finds that in sober truth he is a most ridiculous mixture; and if he ends by trying to comfort himself with the thought that he can at least depend on a third of this mess as being manly and masculine, the humiliating second thought will quickly remind him that in this respect he is no better off than any woman or cow in the land.
---
1: http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html (First hit I found on Google. You might find "better" versions)
In German, you basically have to learn an extra bit of information for every word.
0 = der
1 = die
10 = das
In fact, we tend to argue about the gender of things here regularly. One well-known (and mocked) example is a very popular local hazelnut cream. People actually discuss if the brand name should be considered female or of no gender at all (not sure if anyone wants to claim that it should be male).
Since there's no real logic behind all these rules it's fair game to argue about it..
In Austria Cola is neuter "it", in Germany it is female, which for me as a native speaker from Austria always "feels" like they are referring to the can (which is female in Germany and Austria).
He had yesterday at 3pm with his huge knife the postman killed should could.
--ps i am an amateur in legal field
Funny you should say this, I have the same feeling for the rest of Germany (that I have seen so far) as well... Germany and Germans tend to impose Germany and the German way on you.
Facts I learnt in 4 years in Germany:
- it's very difficult to conduct business in Germany (with German customers) if you aren't fluent in German. And while people correctly says it's not difficult to pick up some German, proficiency requires at least 9 months of full time study
- taxes are prohibitive
- setting up a Gmbh it's expensive, and requires a lot of paperwork. The mini, entrepreneur-friendly UG (aka mini-Gmbh) it's a laughable joke, just political propaganda with so many limitations (number of founders, need to save 25% of profits to build the reserve fund, ...) that's hardly usable for a startup
- tax authorities are, as a matter of fact, going after (I'd like to say, persecuting) contractors, especially those coming from abroad or working for foreign companies. I have a dozen of stories of people asked to pay undue VAT, or asked to provide proofs that their employer are conducting business legitimately in Germany, asked to explain why some months they didn't earn any salary, ...
I like Berlin, but I wouldn't incorporate over there and the winters in that part of the world are too cold for me!
On the other side, tax authorities actively try to punish foreign companies operating in Germany with taxes like the Außensteuergesetz (AStG); applicability varies from country to country, from case to case, and in my experience if you ask two accountants whether your Ltd is subject to AStG, you'll get 2 opposite answers.
Need to socialize with Hacker types? In any place with at least 100k population, you'll find a few. And how many do you need really? My hometown Potsdam had enough of them to have a fun social life. I happily geeked out and co-worked with Hacker Newsers on Malaysian islands. If Berlin really does attract "more of them", how much value does that really add if 1-5 cool people is all that's needed?
It's a groovy place for sure for Indie hackers and creative types. But my "company" is registered elsewhere: the authorities here just simply get in the way too much, obstruct your core business with mindless pointless bureaucracy and take WAY too large a cut of your turnovers. I understand when locals or citizens who get together to form a company register it here and suffer through taxes, forms and labour regulations simply because they, their co-founders, employees and clients were born here or are locals too. But US/UK startup founders moving to Germany to set up their company here? I don't see it. Spend your first 3-6 months pre-incorporation product building here on a Ramen basis on a tourist visa, sure, OK. But don't set up shop here unless you have to. If you want to head offshore from the US or the UK, then either Chile or Asia could prove much more worthwhile. And I cannot reiterate enough: geeks and more specifically talented enthusiastic hackers -- they're really everywhere on the planet, not just in SF, Berlin and London. You'll find them wherever you go, as soon as you figure out how and where to look.
People might have some degree of infrastructure to build a start up down here (especially around the Old Street area) and there's plenty of office space but the problems lie in the fact that if you want to employ young graduates (or people with a few years of experience) you're going to struggle to pay them without adequate investment.
A 1 bedroom property down here will cost you roughly £1200 a month + bills (£1300 - £1400 in total) and then travel in zones 1 and 2 will cost you £106 a month for a travelcard
If you're going to pay a youngster £30k a year then they're going to be forking out 70-80% of their income on accommodation which is absurd.
I live and work in Berlin and my rent is about 25% of my income after taxes. I have about 100 square meters, two balconies and a lift (third floor) in a quiet pre-war (Altbau) building (redeveloped 2005) with a big playground right in front of it. It's about 6km to my work (20 minutes by bicycle) in Berlin Mitte (the east center of Berlin).
People who want to avoid getting fleeced by landlords should consider becoming a member of the local "Mieterverein". It usually costs around 60 Euro per year to be a member and they will give you free legal counsel whenever you have trouble with your landlord: http://www.berliner-mieterverein.de/
Berlin's advantage is not just the rents but also the law of tenancy. Germany's laws are tenant-friendly, whereas British laws are -- from what I've read -- landlord-friendly.
That's helpful if you're a young person looking for accomodation or office space to found a company and want to avoid taking too many risks.
In example, period of cancellation may not be more than 3 months in Germany, security deposit may not exceed 3 months' rent, etc.
Not sure it actually matters. Zürich is probably as tenant-friendly as Berlin, but the rent is as high or higher than London. I think what matters more is the state of the market: Berlin still have lots of real estate available (vs 0.07% of vacant apartments in Zurich).
I truly admire the courage of anyone taking a risk and starting a company under these conditions.
For someone looking for somewhere to live London's main problem isn't price, it's that the flatshare market moves crazily fast.
Everyone in London knows that if you don't want to pay through the nose don't live in the centre!
I had a large 2 bed flat on Commercial Road towards the aldgate side for around £1200/month.
Where I used to live I had my own place, but ever since moving down here I've had to 'downgrade' to living with people you don't really like or don't really speak to.
The fact that us young folk have to bunk up with others to make living down here affordable is an indictment of the property market in London and the UK.
My brother is in his 30s and still has to flatshare, despite getting a good developer salary in London. What's the point of working there again ?
I'm not a student any more dammit: I want my own place to come home to after a hard day's work.
I happen to work at a startup near Old Street and it takes me 30 mins to get to work on the tube from the suburbs. Whilst we'd all love to live in Angel or Notting Hill, the centre of any large city is always going to be expensive.
These 'cool', 'creative' pockets within cities such as San Francisco, London and Berlin that the article suggest as a vital ingredient for developing the perfect startup environment are merely the result of artists after cheap spaces to work, exhibit and live.
After time, cool-hunters follow, prices go up, locals are pushed out, companies move in.
London, particularly the East, is full of areas such as this.
Hmmm... Sounds like the author had a good time in Berlin and wanted to say something nice. Don't think I will pack my bags just yet though.
"Berlin feels like a European Portland or an Austin or a Boulder"
Austin: 785'000 people. Portland: 570'000 people. Boulder: 94'000 people.
Berlin: 3.4 million people.
We must be doing something wrong here in Europe.
But there were places in America that reminded me of Berlin: places right on the line between "large town" and "small city." Not exactly like Berlin, but a very similar feel.
Of course, all of this was from the perspective of an eleven/twelve-year-old, so I could have been missing a lot of stuff that an adult would have noticed. Also, for almost the entire time I lived there, the wall was up and I would imagine that things have changed significantly since then. We left after the wall came down but not long enough after for things to have changed significantly yet--the summer before official re-unification, IIRC.
Its a great place to try and start something though. The creativity, along with the cheapness of this city is fantastic.
It's also, though it's not mentioned in the article, much cheaper -- I think you'll pay about one third as much for your apartment in Berlin as you would in London.
The one thing I will agree with is that it's not cheap. I think it is fair to say London is probably 3X more expensive than Berlin.
This is actually the most ridiculous things I have read in a while. There is so much opportunity in London right now, it's a great place to be even for those whose aspirations differ from "banker", "football hooligan" or "curry shop owner".
There's a lot of bright people doing a lot of cool things in London albeit under the smoke screen of the financial industry.
Rents may be cheaper in Berlin but I believe that salaries are also less. So that might be good for a founder but only _IF_ they can convince good developers to work for less in Berlin.
(Can't believe I'm replying to the troll)
Berlin seems to be the perfect place for a couple like us. There's cheap and excellent food, cheap and beautiful apartments, lots and lots of culture, lots of DIY attitude and so many abandoned warehouses for underground raves... :)
The only reason I never talked about it is that there are no words to describe how great it was.
EDIT: link to event: http://www.founderinstitute.com/posts/297
For several years I've tried to build a community around Ruby/Rails but looks like people don't care and all the cool stuff is made in Berlin anyway...
But...
Berlin has a great international atmosphere, a lot of talented people and people really love startups. But the most important thing is that startup people actually moving to Berlin from all over the world to start their startups or to join others.
When people want to move to a city because of the startup scene there... that's a sign of that something great is happening there.
Dear Sarah: don't worry, I think that London will not be that pissed.
In all companies I have worked for this was the same.
If you tell us you want to learn german we will talk german to you :-)
Beyond that Berlin does have the developer talent pool nor the access to finance that London does.