With 2 cops dead after the mob at the Capitol building, maybe the police will take mobs of armed "Protestors" a little more seriously here than they seem to have in the past.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/01/11/pentagon-auth...
Specific state capitols are a different story, but the consensus seems to be that they are taking these events very seriously, though response if quite varied.
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2021/01/11/...
As for the future, I would assume that local officials are very concerned and likely to take seditionists and insurrectionists just as seriously as they had the Women's March previously, if not more so.
at least the DC government is more than taking it seriously.
Nicknames for the 28th include: Keystone (Special Designation), Fire and Movement, Iron Division, and Bloody Bucket.
It includes the 2nd Infantry Brigade Combat Team (Iron Brigade (PA NG)), the 55th Heavy Brigade Combat Team (PA NG), the 56th Stryker Brigade Combat Team (Independence Brigade (PA NG)) and the Combat Aviation Brigade (28th Infantry Division (Heavy) (PA NG)). The sub-breakdowns of each brigade can be found in the links below, as well as what the mechanized elements each brigade consist of. I'll be honest, it's a lot of very good equipment in what seems to be capable hands.
In modern US military usage, Combat Teams are the atomic unit of independent operations in a theatre. The 28th, as an example has four such units.
Though I do not know what the exact make-up of the Troops are to be in DC, I would not want to be on the wrong side of the barrels of a few Strykers armed with rifles or IEDs. Such encounters have gone the way of the US in the last few attempts. A division's worth of armed and well-trained personnel is a formidable obstacle for any modern military, let alone a group of insurrectionists and seditionists.
All that said, Dear God. That we are talking about such things at all shows the depravity of the moment. Such a moment has occurred before on the Mall with the Bonus Army, but it was a horrible thing then and it remains so now. The thought of US Troops again being used on our fellow citizens is horrific and yet may unfortunately be history soon enough.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_(military)#United_Sta...
https://military.wikia.org/wiki/28th_Infantry_Division_(Unit...
This whole thing is getting out of hand.
Would I personally have the conviction to kill someone who is trying to violently take control of the government?
I never thought I'd be asking myself this question, but here I am.
Furthermore, most states only permit open/concealed carry if no laws are being broken. So if you're breaking curfew, entering a restricted area, unlawfully assembling, etc, you lose the privilege of carrying.
Real question is whether the governments in those states have the political will to act against carry laws.
stems from the mentality of "if you're not with us, you're against us" that has been popular du jour.
No. See for example 42 USC 5207 at the federal level. The southern states I’m familiar with have similar provisions, unsure of others.
(2) Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court's opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller's holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those "in common use at the time" finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.
The temporary surrender under 5207(b) is quite limited both in scope and duration, more than you suggest:
> Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit any person in subsection (a) from requiring the temporary surrender of a firearm as a condition for entry into any mode of transportation used for rescue or evacuation during a major disaster or emergency, provided that such temporarily surrendered firearm is returned at the completion of such rescue or evacuation.
The reference you make to “otherwise authorized to carry firearms…” (I assume) in 5207(a)(4) is also more limited in scope than you state:
> prohibit the carrying of firearms by any person otherwise authorized to carry firearms under Federal, State, or local law, solely because such person is operating under the direction, control, or supervision of a Federal agency in support of relief from the major disaster or emergency.
I do know of states that relax bearing of arms during an emergency (Florida) and several that largely mirror the federal code. You’ve made a very broad claim that “Legally, you're allowed to use emergency powers to suspend open/concealed carry.” that I don’t think holds across the entire US, and I am skeptical would hold even across a majority of the US. Some concrete examples would be helpful.
Which law? The one that says “shall not be infringed?”
But on a pragmatic basis, not a very smart idea to bring a gun to a protest. Most citizens are going to assume you are there to provoke violence or partake in it. If you end up in front of a jury, a reasonable citizen not going to give you the benefit of the doubt. And if an officer engages you, they will prevail legally.
Bring a sign or a bullhorn to a protest. 2A is for personal self defense when law enforcement is not available or when the state calls on able bodied citizens as a militia.
Also, it's kinda bad optics. The kind of people who'd bring a gun to a protest are the kind of people who usually oppose gun control....but having a bunch of yahoos with guns getting worked up with overheated rhetoric is going to push more people over to the gun control side.
Though, the kind of people who are coming to these protests seem to be the kind of people who (incorrectly) think the bill of rights means they get to be irresponsible assholes without experiencing any consequences, political or otherwise.
We can debate many things about guns, but I think we can agree that for a vast number of gun owners, that's not a statement that applies. No matter if we're textualists or not.
Three protestors had fatal medical issues, and it's not clear they were related to the violence.
Another cop died of suicide days later. Nobody knows if his suicide is related to the events on the sixth.
They are not yet being charged as such (and I’d be surprised if insurrection was a charge, though “seditious conspiracy” seems likely a fairly easy case to make).
Mostly, the charges are much simpler (which is unsurprising; its easy to survive a probable cause hearing for “unlawful entry to a restricted building or grounds”, it takes a lot more evidence for seditious conspiracy, treason, insurrection, conspiracy to impede or injure an officer of the united states, or any of the myriad of less simple but more serious crimes they might end up charged with as further investigation occurs.)
I don't think it's fair to say I have been using "HN primarily for political battle". When I do post on political threads, I try to do so with reasonable counter-points, logical debate, and appeal to avoid hyperbole and flame wars. I am certainly not perfect, but that is my aim. I'll try to do better.
Over the last 2 weeks I've posted 48 threads, 30 of which were non-political. Some of the highlights;
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25684154 (+128) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25585764 (+31) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25697136 (+30) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25589742 (+6 posted late, underrated)
Of my rare political post, which of course have been +3 sigma more frequent since the 6th, here are some that I fully stand behind;
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25695844 (+21) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25688330 (+10) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25691821 (+9) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25711604 (+4) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25711572 (+1, was in fact disinformation)
And in full disclosure, some that were less substantive;
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25677651 (+3) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25680846 (+1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25710688 (-2) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25693504 (-4)
I'm not sure if you took issue with this particular post, which is currently (+12) and a totally fair point to question an incorrect factual claim by throw_m239339, who by the way I usually agree with.
EDIT: I see that you posted a ton of these warnings throughout the site on many profiles, which helps me feel less singled out. Again, I'll try to do better. You have an impossible task the last 6 days.
I take your point that you've been participating in other sorts of discussion too. I look through account histories fairly quickly—that's all there's time for. It's a pattern matching game. If I matched you to the wrong pattern, I'm sorry, but if you'd please err on the side of avoiding political battle and sticking to intellectual curiosity, we'd appreciate it.
https://www.revolt.tv/news/2021/1/8/22221070/woman-trump-sup...
If it was a heart issue there was a bit more to it than simple heart attack.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rosanne-boyland-died-capitol-ri...
The Onionesque headline is apparently too good to fact check though, because lots of media outlets are running with it for laughs.
I assume you feel the same way about the antifa and BLM protesters who stormed the houses of the mayor of Seattle, the governor of Washington, and the mayor of Portland?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13YZiZXv6votoHh_CjhxEUhgth_Z...
"Using her official position to lead a march to my home, despite the fact that it was publicly known I was not there, and she and organizers knew that my address was protected under the state confidentiality program because of threats against me due largely to my work as U.S. Attorney. All of us have joined hundreds of demonstrations across the City, but Councilmember Sawant and her followers chose to do so with reckless disregard of the safety of my family and children. In addition, during or after Councilmember Sawant’s speech at that rally, her followers vandalized my home by spray-painting obscenities. (Photo attached)"
If you took the beliefs of the people involved in the insurrection to be true, you probably would join an insurrection as well. They believe that an election was stolen and that democracy has been destroyed in the United States and replaced with some form of a deep state dictatorship.
Trump supporters believe this because they have been lied to repeatedly for years without corrections they found to be believable. How do we correct these firmly held (but false) beliefs?
We need to hold people who lie accountable. If a talk show host makes a claim that an election was fraudulently stolen, that host needs to be able to provide real evidence to support that claim in a court of law or face civil / criminal penalties for disseminating false information.
Many people on HN hate the removal of Trump from Twitter and Facebook, and the removal of Parler from AWS... but private companies always have the right to choose who they do business with, barring a very limited set of protected classes. "Big Tech" are private businesses that most conservatives would support being able to exercise their freedom to choose who to do business with, and Big Tech made the right decision in removing people and organizations from their platforms who have repeatedly tried to promote harmful lies.
Beyond holding liars accountable, we do need to do a better job of making the truth more easily accessed. Perhaps holding elections in some sort of open source / public format would help... then you could look up your own vote and the votes of your friends to confirm, and also double check the counts across the nation.
Private votes is itself a practice with very strong reasoning behind it, to prevent coercion and such. So I can't really get behind this.
But yes, it points directly at the problem right now: if recounts and audits overseen by agencies run by members of their own political party aren't enough for these people, what would be?
How far should we be asked to go to appease these people?
Could we even reasonably appease them? When others are constantly shouting from their TV that they're being abused?
appeasement should not be the goal. You do not appease people, or they will just push for a mile given an inch.
There needs to be ground rules set, and punishment for crossing the line. I think the line has been crossed. Society, at least, in the majority, will agree that the line has been crossed, and that those who crossed it shall be punished.
You can't do that because visibility causes voting fraud.
By coercion. If votes can be checked by other people, a very large number of people (enough to change the result) will be forced under threat by someone else to "vote correctly".
The same happens if you can check your own vote, because any mechanism that lets you do that can usually be used by someone else - "give me your phone so I can check you voted for X like I told you to" (while holding a gun).
That's why free & fair elections have secret ballots, without personal identification on the ballots. To prevent coercion fraud.
Billions: https://www.thestreet.com/politics/donald-trump-rode-5-billi...
In 2016 most of the left-leaning media saw this as a win-win. Promoting Trump's antics would both boost their ratings and cause the Republican party to lose. Unfortunately they were half right.
Elon Musk used his powerful Twitter account to call a cave diving hero a pedophile last summer. The man lost the libel suit and Musk walked free, ironically with L Lin Wood as acting prosecutor.
This is not an excuse. See below.
> Trump supporters believe this because they have been lied to repeatedly for years without corrections they found to be believable. How do we correct these firmly held (but false) beliefs?
The reason these beliefs don't excuse anything is because they arguably do not believe them in the first place. These people are not stupid -- they do not have a problem thinking things through when it suits them.
The problem here is a culture of impunity. These people thought they could do this and face no consequences. Look no further than their shock and dismay at the (very light) treatment they're getting right now.
Yes, we should hold the liars accountable. But we should be just as harsh on the people who actually stormed the Capitol. We need to break this culture of impunity now -- by meting out harsh consequences -- before they try it again.
Oh the irony
https://people.com/politics/family-member-of-woman-who-died-...
Haven’t found a reference for the other.
These were militia.
If the mob (these weren't protestors, they were a mob) hadn't stormed the Capitol, nobody would have died.
"Maybe they didn't die because of the riot?!"
"It was really only 4 dead not 5 becomes someone might have died in their bathtub."
This is the most insensitive fucked up hairsplitting I've ever read.
I am not in favor of anything that happened, but in order to have any perspective on any of this, accurate information is important.
Rosanne Boyland was trampled. Certainly that's related to the violence. The other two were a stroke and a heart attack, both of which seem almost certain to have had as a proximate cause the stress of mob violence.
Didn’t they die the following day after returning to duty? I don’t recall, does anyone have a link?
Someone in the mob threw a fire extinguisher at Officer Sicknick's head. Later on the 1/6th, Sicknick collapsed due to a stroke (probably related to the beating he received). A day later on the 7th, he succumbed to his injury and died. I don't believe he ever "returned to duty", but now that we have his name, his story is at least more easily searchable.
That is definitely being killed by the mob. They don't get a pass because it took some time before the fatal injury caused death.
In any case, RIP Officer Sicknick.
Stripping a deceased person of their dignity via caricature is really a new low. This truly beggars belief and makes me very very sad. I hope the family finds peace.
But describing it as "a new low" against the background of a violent disruption of Congress, with the intent of interfering with the peaceful transition of power... that's not a phrase I'd have thought to use. The mockery is disgusting and disappointing, as is the gullibility of its spread, but both are very common. The violence, by contrast, is genuinely novel.
The violence is not ‘genuinely novel’. We certainly saw many instances of creative ways of violent destruction in protests by the other side in 2020.
Anyways...my 2c. Ymmv.
However, his social media posts before traveling to DC were enough to strip him of any dignity he may have had.
Its a low, but I don’t think its actually new, and not very uncommon in situations where there are both strongly divisive emotions and people dying.
Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/01/10/another...
With two pipe-bombs at the DNC and RNC headquarters, as well as a truck full of Syrofoam+Gasoline bombs, there were clearly people who were trying to do major damage at the event.
EDIT: Given the timing of the DNC + RNC pipe bombs, it has been proposed that the pipe-bombs were purposefully placed away from the Capitol to further confuse capitol police before the riot. Capitol Police were too busy checking out the pipe-bombs to notice the crowd encroaching upon the Capitol building itself.
But herein lies the problem: the mob itself is a perfect opportunity to cause real mayhem. Even if the mob is composed of "relatively peaceful" people who aren't trying to kill people, all it takes is one or two bombs to go off at the right time (or one or two actual right-wing terrorists to take advantage of it), to turn a bad situation into a worse one.
Yeah, Timothy McVeigh style attack would be terrible. You know what would be worse? Timothy McVeigh hiding inside of an angry crowd of supporters.
Or hell, TWO Timothy McVeighs. How many angry right-wing extreme nuts are coming to this thing next week?
I'm saying a hypothetical Timothy McVeigh would kill people (ie: target Mike Pence or Joe Biden), then hide in the mob to prevent police from chasing him.
EDIT: Or any number of "more intelligent" schemes that takes advantage of a rioting mob. I had a bunch of specific examples, but I feel its not moral for me to discuss specifics and help any would-be attackers plan their stuff.
But ultimately, its not very hard to think of ways to take advantage of a mob.
------
The main good news is that the National Guard is deploying in major force: riot shields for protests, and even are equipping themselves with lethal weaponry if things get out of hand.