Comment by leereeves | Hacker News Reader

Comment by leereeves | Hacker News Reader

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It's not surprising that police don't side with Democrats who vilify them for defending themselves, and refuse to respond to psychiatric calls that might make them a target. Consider the killing of Walter Wallace, one of the "psychiatric incidents" you're talking about:

> Several 9-1-1 calls were made by Wallace's sister, brother, and neighbor, telling dispatchers that Wallace was assaulting his parents

> The two officers arrived in the area to respond to a domestic dispute. When they arrived, Wallace walked out of his house carrying a knife. The two officers backed away while telling him to drop the knife, and as Wallace walked in their direction, each officer fired several rounds at Wallace, hitting him in the shoulder and chest. He later died from his wounds in the hospital. Wallace's family stated that Wallace was having a mental health crisis.

> Protests and demonstrations against police brutality and institutional racism in response to Wallace's killing took place across Philadelphia throughout late October.

> The then-presidential nominee Joe Biden and his running mate Kamala Harris published a joint statement saying, "Our hearts are broken for the family of Walter Wallace Jr... We cannot accept that in this country a mental health crisis ends in death."[34]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Walter_Wallace

Body cam video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl1QBL8TijI

Edit: And it really says something about our ability to discuss facts on Hacker News when quotes from Wikipedia and a body cam video are downvoted to invisibility.

> It's not surprising that police don't side with Democrats who vilify them for defending themselves

I honestly don't disagree with this. However, I think it's possible to believe that police are abdicating their duty instead of handling it like proper authority figures while simultaneously believing that the harsh rhetoric of some reformists isn't helping the situation.

This cuts both ways since, as your comment indicates, we always blame "Democrats" or "Republicans" instead of identifying actual problematic behavior. "Democrats" are no more to blame for this than "Republicans" with their "thin blue line" which quite obviously pits the police against some underworld of crime (or, at this point, the "radical left") instead of presenting the reality that police work for and with the community.

> Consider the killing of Walter Wallace, one of the "psychiatric incidents" you're talking about

Cases like this are a very real concern amongst police, EMS and fire in many jurisdictions. I don't think it should be swept under the rug. On the other hand, police, in particular, have vast amounts of leeway and are often not held accountable (certainly not criminally) in many cases that go the opposite direction of the one you describe. This is evident to everyone reading this, I'm sure.

There are no easy solutions but I'm tired of police departments acting entitled. Refusing to perform your job and acting like the legislature + the reform minded public is your enemy does not help anyone. Responsibility lies in police chiefs, police unions/brotherhoods, and the executive and legislative bodies of our local governments to work together.

I’m sorry, but can you really not think of any other way to subdue somebody with a knife than shoot them?

A knife wielded as a weapon within 20ft of you is very definitely a lethal threat. I don't know the circumstances of this particular situation very well, but if I shot someone coming at me with a knife and an intent to harm I'd be well justified in doing so.

You aren’t a cop. I’m 100% in agreement that if a citizen gets attacked by a knife wielder, the use of lethal force in defense is fine. However cops are professional peace keepers. They have training, equipment and numbers on their side. You can watch videos of European cops dealing with a knife threat, it’s really not hard.

Circumstances matter, but it can be done (eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mzPj_IaMzY made the news a while ago).

Here in Germany, people wielding knives get killed from time to time as well. Pepper spray tends to get used first, and I do not remember any case where a dozen rounds were fired[1] (German police fire on the order of 50 rounds total per year, cf https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffengebrauch_der_Polizei_in_... ).

[1] edit: apparently, this does happen, cf https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_Eisenberg

A police officer i knew, in Europe, had practiced self defence and disarmed the knife person, no one hurt.

I would have wanted a tazer, personally, if i was a cop.

Never having been in a knife fight, I'm not going to speculate or second guess people who put their lives on the line. What's your expertise in this area?

No expertise, but just offhand one could use beanbags, rubber bullets, tear gas, pepper spray, tranquilizers, etc - Is there a good reason that these are not options? Why jump straight to shooting someone multiple times? Maybe I’m just not understanding something.

I don't know how effective any of those are at stopping someone who intends to hurt you, but Tasers, which were specifically discussed because the officers weren't carrying any and some people thought they might have helped, apparently are only between 50% to 75% effective.[1] That's a big risk when someone is only a few steps away.

1: https://www.npr.org/2019/06/27/729922975/despite-widespread-...

That is only with the shooty prongs. Get right in there and a taser works 100% of the time. Hit 'em in the spine and the legs drop out. The problem is cops are too concerned about their own safety. They are cowards, and when they get scared they shoot.

This is oversimplification, and is unhelpful.

Public and local priorities determine budgets. Departmental budgets and priorities determine what equipment is purchased and equipped, and the degree to which their usage is trained. Training and official departmental policy determine the degree to which de-escalation is a priority, and whether the officers are obligated to follow an escalation policy in which tools they employ, or if they're permitted a toolkit approach.

... and all of these things differ per locality.

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