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Comment by quasse | Hacker News Reader

>outmatched

I wouldn't say that's even a fair characterization. Per the capitol police website they have 2,600 officers and a budget of $460 million. It honestly just ... didn't look like they were trying very hard. They managed to arrest what, 14 people? Compare that to the BLM protests on the west coast where unmarked vans of feds were literally rolling up and black bagging people off the street.

USCP is charged with protecting Congress, and I think members of congress should be thinking hard about whether the police were complicit in what happened today.

[1] https://www.uscp.gov/media-center/uscp-fast-facts

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Your media consumption bias is showing. It took months of weekly action for a few feds to show up last summer

The standards for response time ought to be rather higher for a large police force that exists primarily to protect a single building complex. And then there's the fact that the Capitol is obviously a much higher-profile target than a random federal courthouse.

>Compare that to the BLM protests on the west coast where unmarked vans of feds were literally rolling up and black bagging people off the street.

Let's not lose perspective.

In the protests outside the Portland federal courthouse building, police held out for weeks while insurrectionists threw bombs [0] and incendiary devices [1], attacked officers with hammers [2] and blinding lasers [3], and tried to breach the courthouse with crowbars and power saws [4]. Nightly arson attempts set fires at, around, and inside the courthouse [5]. The protestors' goal- as stated in their extensive graffiti [6]- was to attack police, breach the courthouse and destroy public property, much as they had done in earlier riots [7]. One stabbed a black conservative journalist in the stomach [8]. Many were arrested carrying illegal guns and ammunition [9].

In response, and after local law enforcement abandoned the courthouse by order of Portland's Mayor Wheeler, federal agents arrested suspects in accordance with the law. They read suspects their rights, treated them fairly, and in most cases- thanks to an extremely permissive District Attorney [10]- released them within 48 hours of arrest.

What happened in Portland (and Seattle, Minneapolis, Chicago, and other American cities) this summer was also undeniably insurrection, and undeniably much more violent. Despite this, police in Portland never shot anyone in the back, much less fatally.

Call today's insurrection what it is, but be consistent.

[0] https://twitter.com/thetypeofguy69/status/129308897288596275...

[1] https://katu.com/news/local/molotov-cocktail-rattles-portlan...

[2] https://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/portland-man-charged-assa...

[3] https://www.king5.com/article/news/politics/federal-officers...

[4] https://twitter.com/Clypian/status/1286906816018841600

[5] https://www.opb.org/news/article/portland-police-less-lethal...

[6] https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/protests/protesters-h...

[7] https://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/portland-man-charged-may-...

[8] https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/07/man-knifed-in-back-...

[9] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/07/26/portla...

[10] https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/no-charges-for-many-ar...

1) People are calling this an “insurrection” because it’s so directly an attack on country leadership. (Whereas the incidents you’re referencing are predominantly riots and attacks on the police.) There may be hypocrisy here, but I don’t think that word is a part of it

2) I think the major difference in the left’s eyes is that those protests were against police brutality and racism, whereas this is an attack on our democracy and an attempt to overrule a free and fair election. Motives matter

3) Invading the capital building wielding deadly weapons is (pretty objectively) more serious than attacking the outside of a single federal courthouse (not to minimize that of course)

Let's not mince words. Insurrection means violent uprising against the government. Attacks on public servants and public buildings for the purpose of overthrowing the government are insurrection.

The Portland courthouse siege- OP's chosen example- was led by violent white anarchists. Their motive was to topple the government. Portland's Black Lives Matter activists complained many times that their cause and movement had been hijacked [0][1][2].

The people who invaded the capitol today, at least some, probably thought they were protecting democracy. They may have thought they were defending election integrity. They were wrong. That doesn't mean they are evil or amoral. It means they are misinformed and misled. Using them as a foil to downplay other, much more violent unrest is neither helpful nor informative.

I haven't seen photos of armed rioters in the capitol. If you have some, please link them.

[0] https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/professor-focus-of-po...

[1] https://komonews.com/news/local/black-people-in-portland-str...

[2] https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-09-04/black-lives...

> The people who invaded the capitol today, at least some, probably thought they were protecting democracy.

What they thought is irrelevant in a country that believes in the rule of law: they were attacking the highest institution of one branch of government with the express purpose of forcing them to overturn the legal result of the election and install their preferred president. This is an (attempted) insurrection, and there are no two ways around it.

Comparing this to an attack on a courthouse is patently absurd. Especially since the courthouse was not attacked for 'toppling the government' - I can't even imagine where you came up with that - but because it was known that arrested/kidnapped protesters had been held inside the courthouse building. In general, none of the BLM or Antifa protesters are interested in "toppling the government" - they are interested in "toppling" the police and in stopping the white nationalist fascists that police are openly supporting from taking over the country.

>This is an (attempted) insurrection, and there are no two ways around it.

Yes, I called it insurrection earlier. You've replied to my comment out of context of the reply which preceded it, so your strawman of me doesn't make any sense.

>they are interested in "toppling" the police and in stopping the white nationalist fascists that police are openly supporting

I wrote a longer reply to your comment, but then I deleted it. DC metro police are more than 50% black, it's a joke that they would "openly support white supremacists."

Uhh, none of your links suggest the aim of the BLM movement is to “topple the government”. Also portland is on the wrong coast from “the government”

If intent mattered when it came to storming the capitol then it should matter when it comes to rioting against the police.

They stormed the capitol, some with guns in hand. Five firearms were seized from the rioters.

Your doing gods work, thanks for your informative comments.

Good grief. If you’re using graffiti as the source then compare it to today where signs said their goal was to overthrow the government.

Trying to draw any sort of equivalence is insincere.

And honestly any one who breached or attempted to breach the courthouse or the Capitol (the building or the property) should go to jail for a long time. So in that sense, we agree.

Whataboutism at it’s finest.

What do you think the establishment would have done if BLM protesters stormed congress?

What do you think?

I think that the Lafayette Square episode with the Trump church visit would look mild in comparison. ‘When the looting starts the shooting starts’ was what Trump said then, where is that rhetoric now?

>Whataboutism at it’s finest.

Stop projecting about being a hypocrite.

>What do you think the establishment would have done if BLM protesters stormed congress?

Those rioters have a well documented history of destroying federal property, attacking federal officers, employees, etc. What do you think?

A follow up article from the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trump-prote...

It appears the DC leadership and the Pentagon wanted to avoid a show of force that mimicked what happened during the summer, trying to learn from their mistakes during the protests triggered by Floyd’s death.

> Compare that to the BLM protests on the west coast where unmarked vans of feds were literally rolling up and black bagging people off the street.

Boy, I wonder if the fact that these guys basically just goofed around and took pictures instead of burning down the capitol (like what happened in the Portland courthouse) had any bearing on that.

Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. We're trying to avoid the hell we're all sinking into. Comments like this are a sharp push hellward, so please don't.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Four people died today, I'm not sure if I would classify that as "goofing around".

One was an unarmed woman shot by law enforcement, as police have confirmed [0]. The other 3 died near the riot due to separate medical emergencies [1].

[0] https://www.fox5dc.com/news/woman-shot-killed-after-pro-trum...

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/live-blog/electora...

That appears to be related to competency, not intentions.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/politics/pipe-bomb-rnc...

Please stop defending an attempt to overthrow a lawful election as goofing around.

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