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Comment by jackewiehose | Hacker News Reader

> Another dislike is that full size keyboards are scorned and generally unavailable. Hey check it out, I’m a full sized adult doing full size job with my pc, so I actually do use the number pad, etc.

I don't understand this trend for less and less keys. I get that it can be nice to have more room on the desktop but why would you give up the arrow- and F-keys. They are so useful and the space benefit without them is marginal.

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Because with layers (holding down a key to change what other keys are doing) you can have the arrows, numbers or F-keys right under your fingers. So you don't have to move your hands so much to use them, and some people really like that idea.

I'm very much against fewer keys (I have lots of space!) but really like how the F keys are now layer+numkey. I don't have to stretch my fingers and lose no functionality otherwise.

It’s bad for IDEs and Excel etc. where you often already have one or two modifiers plus F-key.

Hmm, maybe. I don't use anything that requires a modifier with an F key, that might be why.

That's why there's a trend toward ortholinear keyboards at the small(est) end of things. It helps that they're also fully programmable.

Want a numpad? Switch to a different layout on the fly and have a numpad where you want it. Arrow keys? F-Keys? Why not have those on home row with another layout!

It can get gimmicky, but the impetus for it is that less overall finger/wrist movement == more ergonomic but I'm not fully convinced. Instead, I just prefer everything I can get on home row.

Same here, I have nothing against more keys, I just have no use for them now. I wouldn't want to be without a num row, but now that my tilde key switches the right side of my keyboard's home row to numeric, I don't even have to move my hand away to type numbers.

I gave them up because I really, really like the look of a keyboard that is 100% keys with no gaps. I realise that's not a brilliant reason but that's why.

I don't want a numpad because getting my mouse closer to the center of my desk really helps with RSI for me. There weren't many options left at that point, especially since I wanted a UK layout and no unstandard key sizes (limits your options with keycaps).

But yeah, if I could get something that looked as nice and had F+arrow keys I'd probably go for it.

Fwiw I got used to the chords you need to access those pretty fast.

> I don't want a numpad because getting my mouse closer to the center of my desk really helps with RSI for me

Same. I bought a full-sized keyboard with numpad, but I felt it put the mouse too far off to the right. I much prefer the mouse to rest couple of inches from the enter key.

My current keyboard has no number pad for the same reason, but I miss it.

I think my next one will have it on the left side.

You can buy a programmable macropad / keypad (there's a huge range in price). With the most programmable ones (look for "QMK"), you can assign keys to any arbitrary combination or sequence as you choose, and if required make layers, e.g. NumPad layer → IntelliJ shortcut layer → Some game shortcuts.

Just an overview: http://xahlee.info/kbd/programable_keypads.html

I think the only disadvantage is it's a separate thing, so you have two things to push away from you if you don't want to use the keyboard.

> I don't want a numpad because getting my mouse closer to the center of my desk really helps with RSI for me.

Same here. I went with a smaller keyboard for ergonomics. Also, I never use F-keys and rarely use the arrow keys, and there are some "60%" layouts (The [Mass]Drop ALT) that still have the arrow keys. I don't care for the RGB and other blingy crap on these, since I really don't look at the keyboard much anyway.

> 100% keys with no gaps

The purpose of the gaps is orientation: you can feel that you are going to press F4, because there's a gap below and to the right of it.

Sure, that's a nice perk. It's one I'm personally willing to give up for aesthetics and space on the desk. I'm aware it's not the most practical choice :)

Funnily most laptop keyboards get away with no spaces between any keys even when there might be space. Granted, there are more considerations there, but I think convention has a little to do with it too.

I'm surprised how limited the options for 75% keyboards are. I'd think it'd attract a lot of people who went down to TKL.

Agree. Having to use modifiers for the arrows and function keys etc. gives me worse RSI than having to move my hand back and forth a bit.

Thumb modifiers are also bad for me, as my thumb joints seem particularly sensitive to RSI/arthrosis. One size doesn’t fit all in ergonomics.

It’s my opinion that moving your hands is ultimately good, especially when compared against contorting your hands to hit multiple modifier keys. Much like transitioning between sitting and standing regularly is good, because it means you’re not constantly static.

Because the distance between the mouse and the keyboard needs to be as small as possible, or otherwise switching becomes frustrating.

I wonder how many of the mouse-haters have a numpad. I used to be one of them until I got rid of it.

Interestingly enough, that's one thing that actually works well for left handed people, the numeric keypad isn't in the way using full sized keyboards.

But you should've seen the incredulous look I got when I gave a USB number pad for Christmas to a left handed accountant.

macOS here — I never use the F-keys. I also always disable capslock because I never use that either. Having said that, I do make a lot of use of modifier+key for symbols such as quote marks, apostrophes, and dashes, so I'd love a keyboard where those characters are first class keys. Also, typing '#' is a pain on many (?) mac keyboards.

I think that's unique to the mac UK layout? # is usually on shift-3, so to accommodate £ on the same, they moved # to alt-3. Yuck.

For me - There's another layout named "ABC - Extended", which reverses the two - so £ is on alt-3, but # is back where it belongs. It has a very different compose set behind the alt modifier though, so might be jarring if you frequently use them.

Yup, that must be what it is — frustrating because I need a £ symbol probably less than 1 percent as often as I need a #. I'm more-or-less used to it but every now and then I'll get the wrong modifier and do something like switch to tab #3 instead...

That's unfortunate (although for the majority of people in Britain, £ is obviously much more common).

The British PC keyboard layout has # as a first-level key (next to Enter), and some Windows + Mac users manage to set the Mac to use this layout.

It's just personal preference. I can't use a smaller keyboard than 65% (no function key row, no numpad, but with an arrow and pgdn/pgup cluster), but I have friends who swear by 40% keyboards. Whatever works for you.

It depends on your job role - doing stuff in a terminal all day is probably OK with a 40%, if you type numbers and IP addresses all day you want a numpad, if you live in excel you probably want function keys.

For the arrow keys, if you've bind them to something like hjkl it means you don't have to move your hand to use them. Especially with a split spacebar as your fn key.

I can't remember the last time I used the arrow keys. It's either hjkl, or Ctrl-{a,e,f,b,n,p}, depending on the application.

Like all fashion items, usability comes second to looks.

I think it's disingenuous to call tools that other people value "fashion items". It may not be for you, but using layers to move keys closer to home row helps a lot of us with RSI problems. "Those of us with RSI problems" may include you some day; be careful.

That's fair, I've not been exposed to people with RSIs that use these smaller keyboards. Most people I know with RSIs opt for the Microsoft ergonomic keyboards (The new ones are actually kind of cool looking!)

I'm glad it's working out for you, and I'll certainly sneer a little bit less at them in the future, but just using my anecdotal experience, a lot of RSIs make chording keys difficult, and most people who use small form factor keyboards say they do so because it makes their desk less cluttered. Maybe it's not just a fashion item... But for a certain segment, it certainly is.

to be fair it is mostly fashion, just look at the stupid aviation connectors they put on the USB cable for example.

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