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Comment by dhaivat | Hacker News Reader

It goes without saying that this year has been really difficult for most if not all of us. Not being able to see extended family especially during holiday season can feel lonely and depressing. Please, please, please don't make this a solo suffering, use FaceTime, Xoom, WhatsApp, Meet whatever to talk to friends/family if you can.

If things feel worse - don't keep it to yourself, for those in the US - 1-800-273-8255's the number for National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. And remember - this too shall pass, there is a light at the end of this fucking tunnel and we will get through it.

Take care and happy holidays!

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"there is a light at the end of this fucking tunnel and we will get through it."

As someone that was lonely before COVID, there is no light at the end. Makind friends when over 30 is incredibly difficult. Being an big extrovert in isolation is tough. I want to work in an office, but I probably never will again in our industry.

Don't be so downbeat. A lot of execs really hate remote working, they are people-persons who thrive on conviviality. They will soon push again to have proper offices. You'll be laughing at all this in 2022.

I think Aerosmith said it best:

> the light at the end of the tunnel may be you.

https://genius.com/Aerosmith-amazing-lyrics

I recently did the software engineer job search thing and most of the companies said I’d be required to work to the office when the pandemic is over.

I have a few friends who have taken out of state contracts to do development work under the same premise. They've both said as soon as the pandemic is over, they'll finish their contracts and start working back in their home states again.

Like what in life that's worth a shit don't take some effort?

Being lonely sucks yeah...but take at least a bit of responsibility for it and realize that people make major changes in their lives every-damn-day.

Heroin addicts get clean EVERYDAY...you think being lonely is worse than kicking that shit? Guess what...you're wrong if you do.

Take small steps. Smile more. Be interested in others. You can do it for sure.

>Smile more

No one should be seeing an uncovered face until the whole world is vaccinated.

You can smile over zoom :)

Oh, cmon...

Most of the world won't be offered the vaccine for at least a year.

You should probably rethink what your industry is :).

most of my friends i made past 30. it's just like doreen said here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25533168 it's about finding groups with common interest.

contributing to FOSS is a good place to make friends. other forms of volunteering too.

the difficulty is to do that without having 'to make friends' as the primary goal. that just makes you impatient because not every contact will turn into a friend.

to approach the office work problem, try finding people who would like to share a video connection while working. there are websites to facilitate that.

another way is mentoring. find juniors in your field, and guide them with your experience. i made a bunch of friends as a gsoc mentor and elsewhere.

any hobbies that you might have often also have online communities. join them.

post your interests right here. someone might respond.

as someone else here said, the light at the end of the tunnel is you. put up that light and use it to find friends

In a similar but less urgent vein, if you're having a quiet holiday much like myself but could do with a(n asynchronous) chat, feel free to send anything through to the email listed on my profile.

Likewise, I'm sure other HNers may like to announce as such but just need a little nudge :)

---

I'm sure plenty of bios have contact invitations but us humans are pretty bad at the idea of cold calling strangers

I sort of wish there was a service for internet pen pals where the emails were purposely delayed come to think of it

Ditto. I too am available to chat / talk / zoom. My email is on file.

Someone should create hacker news discord server..

HN can barely keep a check on demon threads[0] with some automated systems to slow posting down and one good, even-handed mod. One uncharitable read and one response would lead to a nightmare realm that would crash Discord.

[0] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/BZtAavpsy9WtMYgEL/demon-thre...

Does this number actually help? It’s shared kind of automatically but I find it trivializes suicide

People who comment and provide whatever help they can - they're not doing this out of malice. They have good intentions. Whether it helps or not - people in trouble have the choice to accept the consolation or ignore it.

It’s not malicious, I’m saying it’s patronizing and hollow

I don't see how it's patronizing. And if it does help people, it's certainly not hollow.

When I was a younger going through a very painful time there was a brief period of suicidal ideation and the suicide hotline would have been a very useful resource for me. I didn't know about it at the time, so I just called 911, and they were very kind to me but their response was absolutely awful. It was pretty clear they weren't trained for such conversations, and just send the police to pick me up. The police! Fortunately at the time I just needed anybody in the world to show that they didn't want me to die, and that was just enough. But the hotline probably would have been more effective and not ended in me in a police cruiser.

Same kind of experience here in France. I could only find 7 numbers, 2 of which for women only and 1 for teens. So I tried the 4 others and met answering machines such as (textually) “We are open Tuesday 5pm-9pm”. Needless to say, I wish they’d be at least open midnight-to-1am, that would be more useful, it was my peak symptom time.

Even more seriously, it is really hard to call someone when depressed, let alone nag them until they answer. Because you don’t feel useful. Nor important to this world. So “why would you pull public resources” was the logic.

I don’t remember how I spent the night, but I’m still here. I have the opposite attitude now 2 years later, I’ll take revenge by staying here and consuming public resources. It’s barely more sane, but it keeps me alive.

I’m glad you’re here. Keep using those resources! If you ever want to talk I can listen.

I'm shocked there are women and teen only lines. Suicide in men is skyrocketing and people just seem to laugh if you bring up points like this.

Men have always been at higher risk for suicide and death in general than women (especially at work in dangerous jobs), at least since childbirth was made mostly safe. But men's lives don't matter in most modern societies, since they are easily replaced.

Just for historical anecdote, the ILO agreement of 1930 on banning forced labour had the same tilt to it: It was for women-and-teens. It is titled « Elimination of all forms of forced and compulsory labour », but excludes « able-bodied men aged 18 to 49. »

https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/@ed_norm/@declarati... Article 11, page 30.

We had to wait until the UN convention of 1957 to have a universal treaty on forced labour which included men.

Calling the police is like waving around a loaded gun. It's not what you want in a moment of crisis. It has some value when the crisis has past and the people are gone. Under the US Constitution and law, police have a duty to aid the state, not any specific person living in it.

I've volunteered fairly regularly on one of the member hotlines, and have personally attempted suicide.

Out of 1000 calls I had one person attempt, maybe 10 people decide not to attempt, and the rest were just people who were anxious or sad or scared and were having thoughts.

There's a very broad spectrum, and for someone who is hopeless or just lonely and sad, talking to a caring human who listens and is comfortable with your pain does help, yes.

For people in a crisis, having someone calm who can talk through what's happening without panicking helps, yes.

I'm curious where you're coming from on this, as I don't understand the perspective behind your comment.

I think it’s a fine service , I’m questioning the ubiquitous copy pasta of sharing the number as if that’s what’s needed . The number itself is everywhere

Having a culture of sharing it is good, I think - it means that they save spending on advertising and have more funds for other things.

The idea behind resharing it is basically to grab someone's attention who is contemplating self-harm and redirect them. The number is always available, but from the sound of it, someone about to commit self-harm is often feeling hopeless, alone, and has severe tunnel vision. So you have to get the offer of help right in front of them. This is why the number is posted all over bridges.

It's also allegedly a very acute thing. Many individuals contemplating self-harm, I am told, don't really want to, and are in that vulnerable moment only briefly, maybe only ever a few times. So helping them is truly possible.

I can absolutely second the "tunnel vision" aspect of that state of mind. the more you put this number and other resources in front of people, the more likely it is to sleep into that tunnel.

This is helpful I was dubious . Good on you and thanks for your service

It will be also great if you can briefly outline some of the things you tell them. I can't imagine the responsibility on the shoulders of a person who is trying to save a life at the other end of the line. Thank you for your service.

You don't tell them anything, you listen to them and encourage them to talk, and you help them understand the things they're struggling with by expressing the feelings you have in response to what they're saying.

At some level, what people really want ultimately isn't an idea, it's a feeling, and learning how to soothe people is usually about being calm and attentive. The people who want me to provide them a solution to their problem usually get angry because I keep redirecting them back to their own feelings, and then we talk about the anger and see if they can find a way for that anger to not be the end of the conversation.

Sometimes though it's a bit different. The self harming teenager in foster care, for example, responds really well to people not getting upset. People that cut themselves are used to adults freaking out, so for self harmers it's usually some variant of "oh man, I'm sorry. Is the bleeding managed? Glad to hear. ... Hard day?"

7cups is an online, guided take on this. I volunteer every now and then.

"I don't want to hear about your problem, call these other people and stop bothering me about it."

Just my guess of how some people would hear it. And honestly I find it a a little weird though; if most people calling the line aren't really suicidal, why call it a suicide hotline?

The closer people are to actually attempt the suicide the harder it is to help them. I wouldn't consider a low rate of people openly admitting that they want to kill themselves to be a failure of the program.

If it trivializes suicide, that just means more people might call. But the same core of people that try need help will still be among them. Out of the countless people in distress that might attempt or succeed in suicide, there is a subset that are on that edge where they're looking for that last bit of help, wanting to try a last hope before taking an irrevocable step.

To be sure, by itself it is not nearly as effective as more personal and substantial interventions, but that is not it's purpose either. It is not there for treatment, it's there to help stabilize an emotional state enough to convince the person to seek those more substantial interventions.

I have not used this number and sometimes when these kind of numbers are included in news pieces I have a big eye roll due to it looking like a rubber stamp. That said, I'm part of other groups that are certainly in on-going crises and I'd love to see our resources plastered everywhere, sincerity or not. At the very least it makes some people stop and think, some may donate, some may volunteer. That's worth my eye rolls.

It's one of those situations in which one organization does it and everyone else realizes there are no downsides. It's probably more sincere that we'd like to admit. Sure, there might be a liability aspect to it, but why wouldn't you plaster it all over, even if it's a rubber stamp? At worst, it has no effect. At best, you help people--people who are likely your customers. Dead customers don't pay bills.

My local highway has 100s of those metal gaurdrails and while I know they mean well, only 1 of them has ever been used.

It might, even if one out of thousand who use it, I’d say it is worth it. A simple act of talking to someone is enough to walk someone off the metaphorical and literal ledge. That one call can lead to long term therapy and counseling. I know where you are coming from - it feels like a drive by post with a phone number.. but I really don’t have any other options to offer.

Having met several people taking calls on similar numbers (in European countries though) and also called a few times myself, I can tell you: They help more than you can imagine.

Most callers are not suicidal, they just need someone empathetic they can talk to. 'Suicide hotline' is just one of the few keywords that are very effective, it catches people in their most vulnerable state right before it's too late for help. Type 'suicide' into google and they show you a number above all results.

To everyone who doesn't have a support structure, please just search for 'suicide/depression/anxiety/* hotline' in your language. You most likely will find someone who will talk to you for an hour at 4am. Don't feel bad about it, you are not bothering anyone, they often do it voluntarily and just want to help others.

It might help folks that can be helped by talking to someone. For someone like me, it would only make me feel bad, like I'm burdening someone else with the knowledge that I'm going to end my life; I know they won't be able to "talk me out of it".

I have no friends, no family, nor any coworkers since July. No one will notice me being dead then any more than they notice me being absent now. When the money runs out, I have the nitrogen tank ready to go.

Life isn't for everyone.

You need some kind of lonely together COVID pod. Other people in the same circumstances. As long as your circle of contact is a closed loop, the exposure is not a big deal (same as with a family quarantined together).

You might not have a lot of shared interests or whatever, but there are countless others suffering exactly like you- in this, you are not alone. People feel a little better being lonely together. And you know, two key ingredients to friendship are simply shared hardship & routine interaction.

P.S. Ever consider volunteering with Big Brothers Big Sisters?

For some of us, it's not about changing your mind. You're right--life isn't for everyone. Death comes for everyone, one way or another, at some point. Normally we don't pick when, but maybe you're right and this is how it comes for you. That's not up to me.

If you don't want to go through it alone, though, you don't have to. We could look that mystery in its face together. See what's there. I'm not expecting to go through it myself yet, but I'd stand there with you while you do.

I'm not any kind of counselor. I'm a longtime lurker who just made an account to say your confrontation with and even path through your own death isn't a burden for everyone. If you want to talk with someone about it, that option is available to you.

I appreciate the offer. For me there's no great mystery; I die every night, and wake up every morning with that dead guy's memories. Life takes effort, and keeping that cycle going just hasn't been worth the effort for a long time. I made the decision months ago.

I think there are a lot of people who keep putting in the effort only to avoid imposing suffering on their loved ones and others. So, in a way I'm lucky in my loneliness: I'm free to be selfish.

Sincere question: If you already die every night and wake up with the dead guy's memories, why do you think dying this slightly different way would lead to a meaningfully different outcome? Maybe you just wake up somewhere else, with the same memories, but then without even the hope that there might be a way out.

Maybe it's just me, but on the off-chance that dying doesn't actually end any of my sufferings, I'd really rather not find that out until I absolutely have to.

There are obvious strong scientific arguments for how sleep is different from death. If you are willing to bet on the afterlife existing, why not get their is an angry dragon hiding behind every door you open?

Sure, there are arguments for how it's different from the outside. From the inside? Who knows? No empirical evidence there. Not a testable hypothesis.

But I'm not the one betting. I'll find out in due time.

The fear that there might be something there has actually occasionally prevented me from making that bet, so I'm sincerely wondering why this other person is so sure it definitely won't be as bad or worse. :shrug:

I've been in your shoes. I had gradually reduced contact to everyone who at that point was still trying to stay in touch, getting people used to me not answering the phone or replying to their messages for ever longer periods. I figured noone would be shocked this way when they finally learned that i'd ditched life.

I was in a state of permanent daze and confusion then, lots of drinking and whatever substances I could get my hands on.

While I had plans made, I had this spur of the moment idea that seemed pretty sane while I was high: I'd at least get a kick out of my life being teh suck, so I got myself into a situation with basically 50/50 chance of dying and beyond my control. I lived and one of the worst hangovers ever. Since I wasn't exactly thrilled with the outcome, I repeated this kind of coin toss with different setups, in total two more times.

The experiences were definitely less shit than my reasons for getting to this point in the first place. In fact, I'd never felt so alive. My problems were not magically gone but now I was curious what else in life I had never thought of, what else I might be missing out on by taking an early exit. I was pretty young and suddenly realized that as of yet I had no idea what to even expect of the future.

I regard everything I've experienced since then as bonus time. I got over the reasons for everything being shit and feeling like shit. Turned out it was mental illness responding well to medication.

Since then, a lot has happened, both good and bad, but it was worth the ride. I have no more reason to fear death, a luxury few are granted early in life. I know there's always an exit option but so far, I've been too curious about what happens next to consider it again.

Now, I won't tell you bullshit like "hurr durr, life is so beautiful, don't throw it away…". The world can be an utter pile of shit and so can the people it spawned and if you go on living, the only thing certain is that you'll have to deal with more world shit and more people shit.

But consider, if you're a curious person, that you'll be missing out on a once in a lifetime experience. You'd be surprised.

I don't regret having stayed for the encore.

I feel like I might have ended up in your position if I hadn't been inoculated against it early.

I'd like to tell you how even objectively bad circumstances do not demand subjective suffering, that there exist treatments and substances that can genuinely help, to try to point you in the direction of Standard Official Resources, and that the future can be better and so on, but I also know that all of that can sound empty or even annoying.

So instead, I'm going to try something that might be unwise. I've only seen it work once.

You're not alone, in the worst possible sense of the phrase. Extreme suffering is common and nearly ignored. Through what can only be reasonably termed negligence, more people die each year to trivially preventable causes than at the peak of the holocaust. Unanswered prayers and extinguished hopes are the sum of experience for a number of people so large that we can't have a proportional emotional response to it.

You have a blessedly uncommon insight in this. Even if your experience isn't the same as all the others, you have an understanding that reality has no safety net.

So now we come to the part that I've always hesitated suggesting to anyone else:

Please help. Please take upon yourself the completely ridiculous and unreasonable burden of doing what is within your physical power, even when it means exposing yourself to even more suffering indefinitely, even when doing anything is already asking too much. It's not a matter of obligation or moral expectation, there's just the brute fact that people constantly suffer and die for no reason, and they could be saved. Just actions and consequences.

I won't tell you that this will help you. It may. I am alive right now. Therapists might suggest 'crying yourself to sleep for a year' and 'having recurring dreams composed solely of uncontrollable sobbing' are not an ideal recovery from severe depression, but if all else fails, turning yourself into a robot that tries to guide others away from the sharper edges is still better than the alternative.

Please stick around and help, because no one else will replace you.

>Please stick around and help, because no one else will replace you.

That's a touch arrogant to say, isn't it? 7.5 billion people, I'd imagine that most are not only replaceable, but trivially so.

No, absolutely not. I was not clear enough.

People are dying constantly because not enough people are helping.

Relative to the number of people trying to help, the size of the problem is nearly infinite.

If someone who could help, doesn't, the people they would have saved just die. No one else will save them.

This is the unreasonable burden. This is why I don't suggest it lightly. I'm telling a person who is already suffering enough to want to opt out, that people will die unless they choose to stay and do a truly unacceptable amount of work.

I'd certainly like to see people in better circumstances help, but there seems to be a problem of perspective. The full scope and seriousness of the problem tends to slide off and not stick for 'healthy' people. Not always, and I appreciate everyone who does even the smallest bit, but... apparently it's ignored often enough that it continues.

(To be clear, I don't really blame people who never think about it or shy away from actually engaging with it. No one can be expected to tolerate it or to carry the burden of doing something about atrocity. That the world contains these evils is not really their fault, they're just people that happen to be in slightly different circumstances than the ones currently dying.)

I admire your composture in talking about your loneliness and your apparent reluctance in burdening other people with your problems. While agreeing with some of the other posters on the generic upside of being alive and serving others, I would also like to tell you that God himself, in the person of Christ, has chosen to share in our suffering, and lead us to hope, as a community of believers. PM me if you (or anyone else, for that matter) want.

'Golden Phone' by Micachu & The Shapes.

The Golden Phone is the yellow-painted suicide hotline phone found on bridges.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TRkZpFgJcI

(it's upbeat)

One other. Nice for the lonely tonight. Unsettling but still beautiful, I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkICkf8e1GA

Afaik, number of suicides went down and number of calls went up when they first time started to put that thing under articles about suicide.

In the UK please call the Samaritans: 116 123 or visit https://www.samaritans.org/

As dhaivat says, if you are in trouble: talk to someone.

If people just want a chat there's a Twitter thing called #JoinIn.

People get together for informal chats on Christmas day. It has a UK focus, which affects the times it'll be busiest.

Honestly, most of those of us who are lonely also hate corniness and artifice. And that sounds like both.

I feel compelled to share that after 30 years, my social anxiety only started improving once I stopped seeing stuff like this as "corniness" and "artifice" and instead as mundane BS that is step 1 of 100 towards a meaningful relationship. I was not the one blessed person on earth who was going to have lifelong friends fall into my lap from going to work[1] and the grocery store

[1] _Small_ FAANG team, artifact of a reorg of a reorg

Exactly right. "Corniness" is a symptom of the beholder's mental health challenge, not the conversation.

Mental challenged? That went from 0 to 100 quickly. It's isn't a DSM diagnosis to decline to be co-opted by feel-good but ultimately vapid, cloy gestures.

UK and European Union phone 116123

It’s like the “thoughts and prayers “ cliche – something that sounds nice but lacks meaning

No, this is not a simple "thoughts and prayers" thing. This is a national helpline that saves lives.

I have family members that have been Samaritans (UK helpline) that have helped people. It's a bit like fight club and the first rule is ...

Actually it is rather more important than fight club: I know that Sammies never, ever discuss anything they are told in confidence - that is a point of honour and practice.

Thoughts and prayers is literally doing nothing, though. Not comparable at all

I thought this for the longest time, and then when I actually went through the kind of thing people offer "thoughts and prayers" for and people offered them to me personally (as opposed to generically on the internet), it actually made a world of difference to know my struggle had even entered the mind of another human being.

So if you can tell someone personally that you're thinking about them, especially in the days/weeks/months/years after the fact, I recommend it.

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