I am lonely will anyone speak to me
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
Some thoughts (intended as a buffet to choose from if it strikes your fancy, not a prescription for "the right way" to do anything at all):
1. It's usually not actually helpful to signal that you are desperate and lonely and your life is in the toilet. Once in a great while, someone will be truly wonderful to you because you did that but it's usually counterproductive.
2. It's usually better to look for one of two things: A chat-friendly space where it's okay to just talk to people or a discussion space on a topic that genuinely interests you.
3. Signaling desperation attracts predators far more often than it attracts real friends.
4. Support groups have a tendency to be all kinds of drama and not terribly helpful because it tends to be the case that you can't suggest to people "You could try doing things differently" because that will be taken as blaming the victim and it's just really hard to find good ways to help people solve their personal problems.
5. The best way to make friends is to connect with people you have something in common with. So joining discussions about things that interest you is more likely to help you connect socially.
6. Yes, you can have real friends via internet. I've had lots of real friends online over the years.
((germ-free internet hugs)) if you need/want them and happy holidays and all that.
I met up with a close friend a few days ago to lament how tough its been to live alone throughout this Covid period, to get rejected by dozens of companies while job hunting, and to do online dating and not only get rejected by 99% of potentials but have some of the worst first dates I've ever had in my life. One woman was literally multi-tasking while she was on the Zoom 'date' with me.
And her response was "I'm sorry that you're going through that" before switching to talking about her kid being noisy. And internally I'm thinking all these years I've spent listening to you complain about your job/husband/baby and this one time I'm being honest about how tough things are right now and you can't even bear to hear me out more than a split second? Give me a fucking break.
Covid-19 really revealed who my true friends are. I am quite thankful that I do have a couple friends who I meet on a weekly basis where we check in on one another and keep our spirits up. Without them, I don't think I would've survived these lockdowns without having a mental breakdown.
That was the end of that phone call and I never heard from her again.
Good. Riddance. I absolutely didn't need another thing leeching away my limited energy that year.
Happy holidays.
However, I know that is a gamble and had I judged that wrong, and someone said "Hello can it be about me today instead of about you? just today? My leg... is gone... I'm not over it." I would NOT be hanging up and never call again.
I might possibly if the way you said it didn't clue me in why you were saying it. If I felt you really didn't want to hear from me at a time like that, then I'd be gone. gone. I thought I would be there for someone when the chips were down and they apparently do not value that from me. What a dumbass I've been.
I started this comment with the intention to say essentially "If you were worried at all that you did something wrong, don't." because even if there had been that initial mis-reading of intentions, that doesn't explain disappearing, so it's squarely on them.
But right at the end there while actuallly writing this, I realized there is a responsibility for communication on everyone's part. I realized there is a plausible sequence of events where I had good intentions and you had good intentions and I had reasonable reactions and you had reasonable reactions and still we both came away thinking the other person is not great.
So now I no longer know if I have a point. Well these worthless thoughts were free at least. :)
One of the best things my therapist did to me this year was get me off of Jordan Peterson. I was spiraling down in self-doubt because I listened to him so much.
It’s one hell of a miserable relationship if you can’t rely on your partner to have a receptive ear to listen to the things that bother you or make you sad.
Crying is important, normal, and healthy.
Basically you have to learn to express emotions in the right way, and to the right people, at the right time. I had to train my therapist girlfriend not to freak out when I have strong, negative feelings. She would constantly make it about herself (I’m not doing enough, you’re not acknowledging what good I’m doing). There was very limited space for simply expressing how I was feeling, and having it acknowledged without being punished.
You also just can’t expect most people to be skillful listeners, or give good advice. Even if they want to help, you need some pretty darn well developed theory of mind to conceptualize how the other person is feeling, and what would be useful for them to hear.
I’d also comment that you when men are stressed, it is often incorrectly read as anger, and thus threatening. I was in this terrible situation where I was in a vacation cabin rental with an ex and 20 other people- we’d broken like a week before. I was in anguish, but several people misread stonefaced non-emotion as anger and aggression. The fallout ended up being really immense, and a huge part of it was just a fundamental misread (combined with “all men are abusers and liars!” style distrust. It was real dumb.)
> a huge part of it was just a fundamental misread
I think you are on to something in the first part about you yourself learning stuff but in the last part you just put the burden of those around you.
My take is that men in general lack training in identifying/naming their own feelings/emotions. Then when you are experiencing some tough negative emotions you can't express/talk about them and then your secondary emotions come in from this frustration. What emotion that is is personal but often men will go to anger, "it's think it's this thing that is causing me pain so that thing is bad/stupid/wrong" but all along it was your own feelings coming from your own unmet needs that you could have handled yourself if you just had could have named and reasoned about them.
An example of an action I took that one person considered "aggressive" and "abusive": There were three couches, shaped in a U configuration. Ex and friends were sitting on one couch. Someone else invited me over to sit on another couch. I came over, sat quietly for about 60 seocnds, decided, you know, I'd rather be somewhere else, and walked away.
This isn't to say I bear no responsibility in how things played out, but the bits I'm disclosing here, even in context, are wild misunderstandings, and when I explained myself I was met with distrust and suspicion. We were in a rental cabin; physical proximity was unavoidable. It wasn't even clearly distressing to my ex, just her white knight friend.
I think this line that anger is an acceptable emotion for men to express is out of line with reality; it's certainly out of line with my lived experience. Anger expressed by men is punished, sometimes exorbitantly.
Women look to men for strength, so showing weakness takes a man out of consideration as a partner.
Let's try not to limit what's possible by inflicting on the world what we expect.
Specifically, statements like these become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Not only are someone's perceptions influenced by social proof - if someone is treated as if you expect them to behave a certain way, they are more likely to behave that way (if I'm going to catch shit for being dishonest anyway, why not lie?).
It depends on your definition of toxic and your definition of truth. The belief that categorical statements have zero relevance in this world is an ideal that is just too unlikely to be true. Broad statements can be made about both men and women.
For example Women tend to have bigger breasts then most men. Men tend to be physically stronger than women. Men tend to run faster than women. Women tend to be shorter then men. Men tend to weigh more than women.
These are all the same exact broad generalizations of the same nature that you pinpointed above but have the strange opposite effect. You say it is toxic to make broad generalizations but despite this you and most people would agree that you'd be insane not to notice the general differences in physicality I mentioned above. This is a contradiction.
Why is it when someone makes a generalization about the physical differences between men and women there is no resistance but as soon as someone mentions behavioral differences like how women tend to be attracted to stronger men that person suddenly violated a social contract?
It makes perfect logical sense. We see it all the time. Women are generally attracted to men that are stronger than them. There are tons of exceptions but the generality is real.
The delusion that's occurring within our society today is that although we are aware that biology can control physical differences between men and women by some black magic we cannot even fathom the fact that this same biology controls behavioral differences. No... biology must make men and women have the exact same intelligence and the exact same behavior according to current social thinking. Does this make sense from a logical standpoint? Again... No.... So why do we delude ourselves with this false notion?
We do it because we are afraid of sexism and racism. We are deathly afraid of inequality even though logically inequality is biologically built into us. No one is actually created equal biologically in terms of intelligence, behavior and physicality. It goes against everything we know about biology and natural selection. In order for something to be naturally selected it CANNOT be equal.
What is toxic is the attempt to paint a pretty idealistic picture of the world at the expense of truth. Equal rights for all does not mean people are born with equal biological traits.
Don't let an ideal hide the reality of the world we live in, but also don't let the ugly reality of the world pervert your ideals. We must learn to coexist with the contradiction.
The problem with making and accepting general statements about the behavior of men and women is that it leads to an incredibly exclusionary society where only the "normal" (per those general statements) can find companionship and happiness.
I'm a man, and I'm straight, but I'm very, very gender-nonconforming. I don't have your typical male traits of being aggressive and competitive and assertive. I'm shy, I'm very sensitive, and my interests are much more "feminine" per our society's norms than "masculine." I'm not handy, I don't go around fixing things in the house. I don't take big risks. I much prefer the cooperative and nourishing work style of women than the competitiveness of men. Perhaps the only typically male thing I have going is being rather strong, thanks to Olympic weightlifting... which I'm attracted to a million times more because of the graceful and aesthetic nature of the movements than any sort of muscle building benefits it might have for my looks. Getting stronger and looking better as a result of practicing it is just a nice side effect.
I struggled with all of that for a long time. I used to be a fan of Jordan Peterson & co, who promote the sort of ideas found in your post. I fell into a really deep depression because I just could not be a socially acceptable Manly Man (TM), unless I was willing to undergo a ridiculous amount of self-inflicted stress to conform to a model of being that's just not who I am.
When my therapist finally convinced me to stop listening to Peterson's ideas, things started getting better. Suddenly, there were possibilities. There are all sorts of people in the world. We're not bound to live strictly by natural laws, because we think and make judgements on people at a much higher level of cognition than simple physical traits.
The 12 rules don't preach that you be a Manly Man TM, but about taking responsibility for your own life, something which applies to both genders. -- JP and his book have plenty of female fans too.
I too am a man who has traits traditionally associated with women, like prioritizing care over competition and having strong empathy. I don't think there's anything unnatural about it. It's somewhat unfortunate that masculinity or femininity have common roots with words male and female, because being masculine or feminine is not ultimately determined by your gender. There's of course tendencies, but the exceptions are common enough that probably everyone can think of a masculine woman or a feminine man in their circles. And masculinity/feminity isn't binary either, it's a spectrum. You have those who are balanced between the two poles. Further, your alignment can change over time. It's just hormones at the end of the day. Let's not assign moral judgments on something basic and natural.
Being confident and competent in life will only improve it, and it's so universal that it applies to anyone regardless of race, gender, creed, or physicality.
But, you asked me to define terms, so let's do just that.
Truth(1): Something that is verifiable, and by it's nature, falsifiable. If you cannot ever hope to disprove something, then you also cannot prove it.
Toxic: A pattern, substance, or behavior that has a deleterious effect on an organism. In this case, society as a whole.
and to define a term or two I think you might have gotten lost on:
Generalization: A set of conclusions obtained by inference from specific cases (e.g. I am not strong, and she doesn't like me, thus all women want strong men)
Average: A statistical measure equal to the sum of a set of scalar quantities divided by the number of said quantities (e.g. the average height of a male human is 5.7', whereas the average height of a female human is 5.2')
Nobody has all the answers when it comes to systems as complex as human cognition. If they did, there would be no point in things like markets, commerce, advertising, etc. Complex systems often display unintuitive behaviors. If you have women figured out so well, why don't you make a product they'll all buy? You'd be the richest man on earth! But, there's a problem - preferences are not a scalar quantity like height; they are far more complicated.
Something we can observe about people is that expectations can shape perception (2). Given this knowledge, one can quite easily infer that making unverified claims about the motivations of literally half of humanity is probably fairly dangerous - it has a high likelihood of shaping bad patterns out of thin air. Put more bluntly, it makes us all collectively dumber.
I do not have my head in the clouds, nor am I looking at the world with rose tinted glasses. I am merely pointing out that it is harmful to impose your (negative, uninformed, sexist, reductive) worldview on others, as we are all struggling enough to make the most of this difficult and confounding life we have without it.
(1)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:The_Truth
(2)https://news.mit.edu/2019/how-expectation-influences-percept...
What these studies show, is that given a set of pictures with faces removed, college age women will point to the pictures of guys who go to the gym when asked to say which one is more attractive to them.
Sure, I can get behind that. As a bisexual male, I also kind of get it. People who are in shape are sexier, duh.
Without even digging into the pitiful sample sizes (n=61, n=131) or the fact that these studies were conducted on an incredibly limited and not at all random subset of the population (college age, at one particular college). The conclusions this article comes to and the ones that you have come to are fundamentally different.
This paper is drawing conclusions about specific, visual sexual attractiveness, fixed for all other concerns - ceterus parabus, if you will. It assumes that all other things are equal.
The conclusions you have so quickly come to, are based on the assertion that all other things are equal. They are not. There is a complex system of other sociological cues and interpersonal relationships that signal whether you do or don't want to be with someone.
Think of all the other things you, as a male, might find sexy about someone. Are they into video games? Do they like the same music as you? Are they successful in business / art / a particular 'scene'? Are they smart? Are they bold? Are they funny?
What you have done, in essence, is to assume that women are simple, and easily understood. I would argue that this is patently ludicrous.
Merry christmas.
To add to that, even the preference identified in those studies is influenced by the specific societal context. Generalizing that to “women prefer fit men” is incorrect, because we know sexual preferences are heavily influenced by the societal context.
For example: https://www.medievalists.net/2020/06/fatness-thinness-middle...
In general, in the United States, women tend to prefer men who are fit.
The scientific papers I provided establish the generalization within that context.
When someone makes a general statement like saying men tend to be taller than women, that someone does so with the awareness that exceptions and alternative contexts exist because such exceptions and contexts are obvious. Obviously some women are really tall and obviously the context isn't some preselected population of women who are over 6 foot.
Another way to look at my point is that broad generalizations must originate from somewhere. They are often indicative of a population where the majority or major component posseses several or a single identical trait. It is absolutely insane to ignore generalities just as it is insane to declare them as absolute truths. That is my point.
That is the unfortunate reality of the world. Generalities, like stereotypes, illustrate an aspect of a truth. Social justice is important but one cannot change the world by eliminating a truth to mold the universe into a delusion that fits the perception of a social justice ideal.
I asserted a generalization that women tend to like men who are more fit and I asserted that generalizations apply to the universe. Something along the lines of: Not all women are shorter than men, but in general they are.
Then I used science to establish that generality. That's it. The conclusion of those papers never claimed women are easily understood and I never claimed it either.
The crazy thing is, you claimed to agree with me as "bisexual" man then proceeded to debate a point with an imaginary claim that was never made.
Perhaps you're not delusional and your arguments are tactics and lies used to manipulate a conversation in a direction of your choosing. If that is the case my conclusion is that you're a liar.
Tldr: You are arguing against claims that were never made.
Thank you for being a voice of reason.
Happy holidays to you and yours!
I think what makes him so popular among his fans is that he lends scientific credence to embracing reactionary role models. Some men (and even a few women) seem to feel deeply insecure without a very explicit set of rules of how to interact with the opposite sex, how to live even. Maybe some men feel threatened by emancipated women or maybe they can't find their place in a society that places few constraints on what to do after growing up.
Peterson spells out for them in detail how to conform to the traditional gender roles historically endorsed by the church, but he substitutes the foundation of christian moralism with evolutionary theory and sociology. He's handing his disciples a step by step guide to building a family. Why this brand of "neo-conservatism" can be popular in a secular world, one where science offers explanations once received through faith, but fails to provide the comfort and sense of belonging that Christianity built its success on ever since its humble beginnings as an obscure, persecuted underground cult in the Roman Empire, doesn't need much explanation.
Believe it or not, there are in fact women subscribing to these old school values. It's not like Peterson is forcing anyone to roll back the achievements of feminism or promoting inequality, just some archaic ideas that still work well enough for some to embrace them as a template for their lives.
What's so toxic or controversial about that?
Those feelings of insecurity are there because of a conservative cultural context, that shames difference and enforces conformity to an arbitrary norm.
Put bluntly, this system of belief will prevent you from learning real things about the world. If you constantly avoid genuine interactions with people because those interactions scare you, you'll never learn why those interactions are not actually scary.
I would direct you to Plato's cave. Petersen is asking you to take the shadows on the wall at face value.
The misunderstanding:
It looks like you read me saying all women look for strong men and/or that women should look for that. I have no interest in either. People should follow their hearts, be themselves, etc. I am saying that empirically, and with big individual variation, on average, that is a fact. An important fact.
I'm also not saying that men should pretend to be who they aren't to get women. For one thing, they usually see right through that. But at the same time, if you don't understand what your potential partners need from you, you're probably not going to fulfill those needs.
The Taboo:
Saying it's "a toxic pattern" to talk openly about these things is a way of saying this is a taboo topic.
And of course I know it's sensitive, but I don't think it should be. These are very important things, and they need to be talked about and understood. Even though it's uncomfortable.
Was it through science?
Personal observation?
Did you read it in a book? If so, which one? And how did they establish it as a fact?
She might have been unconsciously signaling: "everyone is struggling some way or another, let me share mine so we can relate somehow..."
I think most single guys are experiencing similar problems right now with online dating. It's tough. Your friend may have misjudged how much you wanted to talk about it. Often the best way to get the response you're looking for is to straight-up tell the person (politely) how you're feeling and what you want from them.
> 3. Signaling desperation attracts predators far more often than it attracts real friends.
Yep, these are excellent and hugely valuable life lessons. There is a real and common tendency among humans to react to negativity by either running away or moving in for the kill.
On the surface this is a depressing realization, as you get older you come to understand that nobody really gives a fuck (maybe a handful of people do if you're lucky, but I'm convinced that many don't even know how to care about someone else). Most relationships are only skin deep.
However it's also a powerful revelation, it gives you a tool for understanding people and that tool can change your life. If you suspect someone may be involved with you simply to take advantage (emotionally, financially, sexually, socially, whatever), you can start asking them for things.
The ones that care will give you what you ask for. The ones that don't will disappear almost immediately (which is one hell of a moment of clarity when you've known them for years).
When you feel a relationship is one-sided and you ask the other person (nicely) to do something which will even out the score, the result is always a win. If they value the relationship you get what you want and the relationship is reaffirmed. If they don't then a toxic relationship ends and you can go focus on the healthy ones.
This tool is so powerful that it's really on you to be fair and strike a balance. Once you start using it you'll find it's surprisingly easy to overuse, there are a lot of people who have problems with saying no. There are no rules but I try to strike a 50/50 balance of give and take even when the other person says they're happy. Aside from your innate sense of fairness the only other real check on your ability to use other people is your reputation (that's an enormous one over time, though).
ad. 6: then I guess I'm really bad at making friends period. It has never worked for me.
I just mean a platonic, symbiotic relationship. You give something, you get something.
That can absolutely happen online.
This is something so obvious but has eluded me until you said it. I have seen this happen in work settings and have never been able to pinpoint it. Thanks!
Most women instinctively cross over to the other side of the road, equating distance with safety, without realizing that this is signaling just the kind of vulnerability that makes them appear as potential prey to a certain type of male predator in the first place.
On a slight tangent but still related, think overdraft fees. We don't live in a world where the bank will give you money when you need it. They will take more away ever since we invented negative numbers.
I want to live in a world where help is automatically routed to those in need, even without them asking for it.
I wish more people saw the world under these lenses.
Sometimes it takes a friend (or stranger) to make such suggestions. Lonely and depressed people are typically trapped inside their heads, so they need some kind of external stimulus to help them understand that they are in control of their life. The truth sometimes hurts, but calling it victim blaming is nonsense.
https://witnesstodestruction.blogspot.com/p/a-pragmatic-appr...
"I think when one has been angry for a very long time, one gets used to it. And it becomes comfortable, like old leather. And, finally, it becomes so familiar that one can't ever remember feeling any other way."
My best guess: Your friend is not looking for advice, they're looking for validation of their feelings when lamenting about their life.
But maybe this is a "what you want vs. what you need" situation.
Getting on the internets and asking total strangers for their opinion helped me snap out of it. Even though I mostly didn't take their advice, being confronted with the aloof views of randos with no stake in my dilemma was what I needed to see the big picture beyond the walls that had already closed in on me.
In either of these situations，I'm certain a friend would have been either too compassionate or too afraid to appear immoral to give me the cold, hard truth.
Hooray for assholes that don't give a fuck =D
I would add that people who are desperate will drag you down like a drowning person. I have been on both sides of this, and I have had to overcome this "total reliance" on others that makes them go away.
But, the best advice I have ever gotten (paraphrasing) was "face YOUR problems". It didn't matter what or how they said it. If you don't want things to be better, they never will get better.
The problem is that hopelessness _feels_ permanent. I have just gotten where I can be helpful to others after decades, and I am seeing that _extreme_ patience, caring and understanding allow that difficult discussion about change to happen.
Keep saying what you are saying. It was people like you that helped me start facing things on my own. Bravo and peace and love to you.
This is how many such communities become toxic over time.
This is just a challenging problem space. Some things are actually hard to do.
Or won’t
I think this can depend on your situation and the type of people who you have around you.
I'd be tempted to slightly nuance this as:
"Signaling desperation can attract predators more often than it attracts real friends."
This may not be the case for some, and personally I wouldn't want a universal message of "don't signal desperation" to be heard.
I do accept it will depend on whether those around you have your best interests at heart and will provide support, or whether you're in a situation where more caution needs to be taken (which I guess may reflect the situation you were in).
That said, I agree with many of your other points and I'm very happy for you that you seem to have moved past some of your struggles, to the point that you are now able to write this very thoughtful and valuable advice for others going through the same things!
Edit: typo
Doreen, I always find your posts and comments to be very insightful. I've never thought about it this way, but it makes a lot of sense. Fixating on one's own desperation is basically a waste of time. One could be doing the things that removes them from desperation instead of fixating on not doing those things. It really does seem counterproductive.
Thats all there is to it.
Dont sign up for a gym membership and show up there confused and intimidated. join some sort of excercise class; crossfit, spinning,jiu jitsu, yoga.
I promise, it wont be overnight, but it will be FAST. you will feel better, youll make friends without even trying. Its impossible to go through an hour of physical suffering every day with the same people and not end up gradually talking more and getting to know each other.
OR, you could sit at your computer with the curtains shut, feeling like shit while you wait for friends to appear out of thin air.
Really, though, thanks for posting this. I'm in a slump recently and I've been nagging myself to get up and go (to no avail, nagging has never worked on me anyhow) and it's genuinely helpful to be reminded that others have done it, too and that the results are real.
Today is it. I'ma go running. Cheers!
Got myself a bike, started riding in the forest with one group. Hiking with couple of others.
While getting out into nature is great in itself, the social aspect was really nice as well. Very relaxed, nothing forced.
But yeah, getting in better shape really helped on feeling more positive.
I really encourage people to try a martial art like boxing, muay thai, or brazilian jiu jitsu once COVID lockdowns are over.
These sports are extremely effective at fighting depression and loneliness for a couple of reasons:
1. You get plenty of one-on-one interaction
2. Shared suffering really does create bonds
3. There is a lot of positive validation ("great jab!", "nice hook")
4. You will see the same people 2,3,4 times a week
5. Exercise releases endorphins
6. You will be proud of how your body changes for the better
7. You will get many compliments on your new figure
8. You will get more romantic interest (looks do matter, and doing a fun/exciting sport can be bonus points in dating)
4 years ago I joined a gym and that is hands down the best choice I made in my life.
While I agree on/confirm all other points, 6, 7 and 8 aren't that easy: everytime I talk about my hobby, I usually get one of these feedbacks:
- "he's dangerous, better stay away before a brawl starts"
- "nah, you don't looke like a fighter" (my body is slim type)
- general ignorant remarks about kickboxing vs muahy thai, or this gym vs that gym. Or my sport is better than yours.
The issue is two fold:
On one side, people are generally ignorant regarding martial arts (mechanics, techniques, mindset, morality).
On the other side, training usually gives you enough muscles to practice the art (and you'll notice that), but it might not be enough to give you "visible" muscles: for that you need a diet and training tailor suited to your body parameters.
(EDIT: formatting)
A very dedicated martial artist got a concussion, then spiraled into depression. His blood work was all messed up. Doctor after doctor couldn't figure it out.
Finally landed on an occupational therapist who told him to start training again. Cleared it right up. Apparently going from 6 hours a day of training to 0 is rough.
Unfortunately, due to COVID, all the rinks in the country are closed (and most annoyingly, they are extremely safe places... Despite that, much riskier places such as swimming pools are open). And having what became such a huge part of your life ripped away for an indefinite time is completely harrowing.
Sure, I miss bars, hangouts with friends, board game meetups, cinemas... But I don't just miss the rink. I am in complete withdrawal. And psychologically, it's really, really hard to cope with not being able to go.
It can be as physically demanding as you want (depends on the weapon) , and even better is that you make new friends and get to stab them
It looks like we are generally as lonely as we were throughout the 20th century. Perhaps that's a sign the internet hasn't yet lived up to its promise as the great unifier. The fact that the greatest and most accessible communication technology in history hasn't put a dent in loneliness shows that we still have a lot of work to do in making it serve that end.
Which is to say: the problem was never a lack of communication channels.
On the one hand, social clubs have been evaporating. Bowling leagues, rotary clubs, ham radio clubs etc. They're fading, and this predates 2020. These things are compatible with individualism -- it's freedom of association. But in practice people aren't doing them as much anymore.
On the other hand, the bureaucratization of social assistance. If you need help you don't go to people in your community who already know your face and the specifics of your plight, you fill out a form on a computer and some algorithm decides whether you get a supermarket gift card.
Both of these trends are isolating but it's not because of where we put the trade off between individualism and collectivism, it's because we're doing both of them poorly.
Bowling social clubs assume everyone has a lot of free time, does not have small kids or offloaded all kids care on partner.
I am assuming that sometimes you need to be alone and just rest too. You can't spend all the time in obligations only without your moods being affected.
With 60 hours a week, the above itself is limited. Even without bowling league, with that much working you don't do anything else, you are work only person basically.
Most of what you call other priorities does not disappear if you don't want to do it or prefer social. If you don't feel like doing it tonight, simply, someone else have more chores to do.
It's not like you're a bad parent if you're only reading them a bedtime story 5 days a week instead of 7.
Of course, there are still a lot of things competing for that discretionary time - exercise, or a job with a longer commute, or socialising, or working late, or professional development, or volunteering, or a hobby, or relaxing, or political engagement.
And hell, if you like that extra 2 evenings reading bedtime stories more than you like bowling, that's a completely valid choice too. Wouldn't have had kids if you didn't like that sort of thing, after all.
And the other aspect that you unappreciate is that they were not time for yourself not time she you get rest and get to do what you want. They over time are another social obligation. You need me time on top of that.
Also, bedtime story is like 10 minutes typically. That is not the issue. The issue is that your partner wants free time too, so the sort of free time you have gotta be split fairly.
Sure. So Mom helps with the homework on Mondays and Fridays, Dad helps with the homework on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and both parents help on Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday.
Is this it? Widespread social isolation as the fallout of the two income trap? It could be.
Meanwhile the money from the second job gets eaten up by commuting and childcare costs etc., and being thrust into a higher tax bracket, but also from having to outbid other two income households for artificially scarce housing in good school districts, which you can't avoid by not doing it yourself and so it's prisoner's dilemma. The two income trap is a real thing.
But that freedom is used by individuals to gather with others.
> Ha I typed “I am lonely” into Google as well! Wonderful. I’m not so lonely anymore!
If things feel worse - don't keep it to yourself, for those in the US - 1-800-273-8255's the number for National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. And remember - this too shall pass, there is a light at the end of this fucking tunnel and we will get through it.
Take care and happy holidays!
Even more seriously, it is really hard to call someone when depressed, let alone nag them until they answer. Because you don’t feel useful. Nor important to this world. So “why would you pull public resources” was the logic.
I don’t remember how I spent the night, but I’m still here. I have the opposite attitude now 2 years later, I’ll take revenge by staying here and consuming public resources. It’s barely more sane, but it keeps me alive.
https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/@ed_norm/@declarati... Article 11, page 30.
We had to wait until the UN convention of 1957 to have a universal treaty on forced labour which included men.
Out of 1000 calls I had one person attempt, maybe 10 people decide not to attempt, and the rest were just people who were anxious or sad or scared and were having thoughts.
There's a very broad spectrum, and for someone who is hopeless or just lonely and sad, talking to a caring human who listens and is comfortable with your pain does help, yes.
For people in a crisis, having someone calm who can talk through what's happening without panicking helps, yes.
I'm curious where you're coming from on this, as I don't understand the perspective behind your comment.
It's also allegedly a very acute thing. Many individuals contemplating self-harm, I am told, don't really want to, and are in that vulnerable moment only briefly, maybe only ever a few times. So helping them is truly possible.
At some level, what people really want ultimately isn't an idea, it's a feeling, and learning how to soothe people is usually about being calm and attentive. The people who want me to provide them a solution to their problem usually get angry because I keep redirecting them back to their own feelings, and then we talk about the anger and see if they can find a way for that anger to not be the end of the conversation.
Sometimes though it's a bit different. The self harming teenager in foster care, for example, responds really well to people not getting upset. People that cut themselves are used to adults freaking out, so for self harmers it's usually some variant of "oh man, I'm sorry. Is the bleeding managed? Glad to hear. ... Hard day?"
Just my guess of how some people would hear it. And honestly I find it a a little weird though; if most people calling the line aren't really suicidal, why call it a suicide hotline?
To be sure, by itself it is not nearly as effective as more personal and substantial interventions, but that is not it's purpose either. It is not there for treatment, it's there to help stabilize an emotional state enough to convince the person to seek those more substantial interventions.
Most callers are not suicidal, they just need someone empathetic they can talk to. 'Suicide hotline' is just one of the few keywords that are very effective, it catches people in their most vulnerable state right before it's too late for help. Type 'suicide' into google and they show you a number above all results.
To everyone who doesn't have a support structure, please just search for 'suicide/depression/anxiety/* hotline' in your language. You most likely will find someone who will talk to you for an hour at 4am. Don't feel bad about it, you are not bothering anyone, they often do it voluntarily and just want to help others.
I have no friends, no family, nor any coworkers since July. No one will notice me being dead then any more than they notice me being absent now. When the money runs out, I have the nitrogen tank ready to go.
Life isn't for everyone.
You might not have a lot of shared interests or whatever, but there are countless others suffering exactly like you- in this, you are not alone. People feel a little better being lonely together. And you know, two key ingredients to friendship are simply shared hardship & routine interaction.
P.S. Ever consider volunteering with Big Brothers Big Sisters?
If you don't want to go through it alone, though, you don't have to. We could look that mystery in its face together. See what's there. I'm not expecting to go through it myself yet, but I'd stand there with you while you do.
I'm not any kind of counselor. I'm a longtime lurker who just made an account to say your confrontation with and even path through your own death isn't a burden for everyone. If you want to talk with someone about it, that option is available to you.
I think there are a lot of people who keep putting in the effort only to avoid imposing suffering on their loved ones and others. So, in a way I'm lucky in my loneliness: I'm free to be selfish.
Maybe it's just me, but on the off-chance that dying doesn't actually end any of my sufferings, I'd really rather not find that out until I absolutely have to.
But I'm not the one betting. I'll find out in due time.
The fear that there might be something there has actually occasionally prevented me from making that bet, so I'm sincerely wondering why this other person is so sure it definitely won't be as bad or worse. :shrug:
I was in a state of permanent daze and confusion then, lots of drinking and whatever substances I could get my hands on.
While I had plans made, I had this spur of the moment idea that seemed pretty sane while I was high: I'd at least get a kick out of my life being teh suck, so I got myself into a situation with basically 50/50 chance of dying and beyond my control. I lived and one of the worst hangovers ever. Since I wasn't exactly thrilled with the outcome, I repeated this kind of coin toss with different setups, in total two more times.
The experiences were definitely less shit than my reasons for getting to this point in the first place. In fact, I'd never felt so alive. My problems were not magically gone but now I was curious what else in life I had never thought of, what else I might be missing out on by taking an early exit. I was pretty young and suddenly realized that as of yet I had no idea what to even expect of the future.
I regard everything I've experienced since then as bonus time. I got over the reasons for everything being shit and feeling like shit. Turned out it was mental illness responding well to medication.
Since then, a lot has happened, both good and bad, but it was worth the ride. I have no more reason to fear death, a luxury few are granted early in life. I know there's always an exit option but so far, I've been too curious about what happens next to consider it again.
Now, I won't tell you bullshit like "hurr durr, life is so beautiful, don't throw it away…". The world can be an utter pile of shit and so can the people it spawned and if you go on living, the only thing certain is that you'll have to deal with more world shit and more people shit.
But consider, if you're a curious person, that you'll be missing out on a once in a lifetime experience. You'd be surprised.
I don't regret having stayed for the encore.
I'd like to tell you how even objectively bad circumstances do not demand subjective suffering, that there exist treatments and substances that can genuinely help, to try to point you in the direction of Standard Official Resources, and that the future can be better and so on, but I also know that all of that can sound empty or even annoying.
So instead, I'm going to try something that might be unwise. I've only seen it work once.
You're not alone, in the worst possible sense of the phrase. Extreme suffering is common and nearly ignored. Through what can only be reasonably termed negligence, more people die each year to trivially preventable causes than at the peak of the holocaust. Unanswered prayers and extinguished hopes are the sum of experience for a number of people so large that we can't have a proportional emotional response to it.
You have a blessedly uncommon insight in this. Even if your experience isn't the same as all the others, you have an understanding that reality has no safety net.
So now we come to the part that I've always hesitated suggesting to anyone else:
Please help. Please take upon yourself the completely ridiculous and unreasonable burden of doing what is within your physical power, even when it means exposing yourself to even more suffering indefinitely, even when doing anything is already asking too much. It's not a matter of obligation or moral expectation, there's just the brute fact that people constantly suffer and die for no reason, and they could be saved. Just actions and consequences.
I won't tell you that this will help you. It may. I am alive right now. Therapists might suggest 'crying yourself to sleep for a year' and 'having recurring dreams composed solely of uncontrollable sobbing' are not an ideal recovery from severe depression, but if all else fails, turning yourself into a robot that tries to guide others away from the sharper edges is still better than the alternative.
Please stick around and help, because no one else will replace you.
That's a touch arrogant to say, isn't it? 7.5 billion people, I'd imagine that most are not only replaceable, but trivially so.
People are dying constantly because not enough people are helping.
Relative to the number of people trying to help, the size of the problem is nearly infinite.
If someone who could help, doesn't, the people they would have saved just die. No one else will save them.
This is the unreasonable burden. This is why I don't suggest it lightly. I'm telling a person who is already suffering enough to want to opt out, that people will die unless they choose to stay and do a truly unacceptable amount of work.
I'd certainly like to see people in better circumstances help, but there seems to be a problem of perspective. The full scope and seriousness of the problem tends to slide off and not stick for 'healthy' people. Not always, and I appreciate everyone who does even the smallest bit, but... apparently it's ignored often enough that it continues.
(To be clear, I don't really blame people who never think about it or shy away from actually engaging with it. No one can be expected to tolerate it or to carry the burden of doing something about atrocity. That the world contains these evils is not really their fault, they're just people that happen to be in slightly different circumstances than the ones currently dying.)
The Golden Phone is the yellow-painted suicide hotline phone found on bridges.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TRkZpFgJcI
(it's upbeat)
I have family members that have been Samaritans (UK helpline) that have helped people. It's a bit like fight club and the first rule is ...
Actually it is rather more important than fight club: I know that Sammies never, ever discuss anything they are told in confidence - that is a point of honour and practice.
So if you can tell someone personally that you're thinking about them, especially in the days/weeks/months/years after the fact, I recommend it.
As dhaivat says, if you are in trouble: talk to someone.
Likewise, I'm sure other HNers may like to announce as such but just need a little nudge :)
---
I'm sure plenty of bios have contact invitations but us humans are pretty bad at the idea of cold calling strangers
I sort of wish there was a service for internet pen pals where the emails were purposely delayed come to think of it
[0] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/BZtAavpsy9WtMYgEL/demon-thre...
People get together for informal chats on Christmas day. It has a UK focus, which affects the times it'll be busiest.
[1] _Small_ FAANG team, artifact of a reorg of a reorg
As someone that was lonely before COVID, there is no light at the end. Makind friends when over 30 is incredibly difficult. Being an big extrovert in isolation is tough. I want to work in an office, but I probably never will again in our industry.
> the light at the end of the tunnel may be you.
Being lonely sucks yeah...but take at least a bit of responsibility for it and realize that people make major changes in their lives every-damn-day.
Heroin addicts get clean EVERYDAY...you think being lonely is worse than kicking that shit? Guess what...you're wrong if you do.
Take small steps. Smile more. Be interested in others. You can do it for sure.
No one should be seeing an uncovered face until the whole world is vaccinated.
Most of the world won't be offered the vaccine for at least a year.
contributing to FOSS is a good place to make friends. other forms of volunteering too.
the difficulty is to do that without having 'to make friends' as the primary goal. that just makes you impatient because not every contact will turn into a friend.
to approach the office work problem, try finding people who would like to share a video connection while working. there are websites to facilitate that.
another way is mentoring. find juniors in your field, and guide them with your experience. i made a bunch of friends as a gsoc mentor and elsewhere.
any hobbies that you might have often also have online communities. join them.
post your interests right here. someone might respond.
as someone else here said, the light at the end of the tunnel is you. put up that light and use it to find friends
Consider the opposite though：imagine being trapped in a relationship both sides feel compelled only "for the Kids". If you feel bad for being alone, realize that what you got is the closest a human can be to true freedom. Only in being alone can you be unconstrained by the wants or needs (hell， just the wishes) of another person.
Your future self might envy this luxury of yours, so appreciate it while you can.
It was a painful experience at times, although I tried not to wallow in it. Becoming completely accepting of that sort of isolation, and growing to thrive within it, is something I wish everyone could experience.
As you might imagine I'm quite okay being alone for the most part having grown up friendless. I have no idea what having a friend is like, or how you're supposed to be a fiend, and for the most part that's okay with me. Ironically, my parents are actually now concerned about why I haven't dated anyone in my 30's; they've actually asked their family friends if they knew anyone that might be interested.
And there in lies the rub. If you're really okay with being alone, why bother having anyone else in your life? It's hugely uncomfortable for someone that's used to it, for little benefit.
I do wish sometimes that I was normal and had an active social life. Being single/alone at my age is beginning to look weird.
However, like most advice, it's never heard until they are ready to hear it.
Living without a family or community is like running a marathon.
There's something virtuous about learning to say "fuck you" to your brain's self-protection circuitry, experiencing the hell it raises, and staying the course. Any healthy person could manage it. Many would be better off for the conditioning and the experience.
But pushing on the edges of your design parameters is not going to be sunshine and rainbows. It's supposed to hurt. You should be "OK" in the sense of "stronger than the pain and will make it" not "feeling good."
And it's probably going to hurt a lot more if it's pushed on you from outside vs. a decision to challenge yourself.
But for a select few, being alone can be a preferred state over having to share a place and time. If you can embrace the fact that you are different than most (and fuck them!) and if you can make your alone time fulfilling, you may be one of those lucky few who don't need company to recharge your 'battery'.
A pretty sure tell is when you actually consider socializing a drain.
All that while feeling very lonely simultaneously. Like, you are lonely, but meeting people makes it worst and makes it plain you don't belong.
That happened to me.
edit: Merry Christmas btw.
For most people there exists a healthy social balance of privacy and engagement by limiting sharing to a confined group, often close social contacts from the offline world. For many people that balance is absent resulting in behaviors that could be defined as exhibitionist. As an example years ago there numbers for Twitter suggestive of the 80/20 rule where a minority of the users create that vast majority of content while everyone else mostly lurks.
From a technology perspective, especially an ad driven platform, that creates all kinds of problems. Exhibitionists, the possibly unhealthy people, are an audience the platform wants to reward because they disproportionately drive revenue. In the offline world this is extremely bizarre behavior, but on online social platforms become something artificially enviable. These behaviors exchange social interaction for attention engagement often at cost to privacy.
As a technologist it is possible to create a software tool that is inherently private and creates a healthy social environment online. In order to accomplish that the technology has to promote the same sort of privacy and interpersonal balance that is more natural to the offline world. The biggest challenge isn’t designing the proper technology but rather promoting such a solution contrary to current platforms and their supposed incentives.
Some strange threads ensued.
Ha! I too have a something like paranoid disease, and writing it down made me realize how crazy my speculation. [link redacted]
Your "problem" is colloquially called "teenage angst" and adequate treatment can be achieved by reading The Catcher In The Rye, listening to copious amounts of Grunge music and, if you have enough status among your peer group, fucking your brains out with someone equally confused as yourself but of the (usually) opposite sex, about whom only in hindsight when it is too late you'll realize that you actually cared about.
There's no worse curse than being born and stuck in a place where you can't find any compatible people let alone kindred spirits.
All I can hope for is running into someone like myself someday, but if they're really like me we will just turn each other off.
Even those who wish for censorship to protect their own interests， at the very least their agents， are most likely humanists - for now.
As long as we have reason to hold on to this assumption, know that you are not alone - even though most of those who you would like to speak to may prefer to stay silent over having every Syllable of their public speech recorded for perpetuity and likely analyzed for exploitability， not unlike a software bug allowing privilege escalation.
IMO, it has never been a better time to speak up. We may be the last generation to know the true meaning of free speech, where it is still possible to express or share an opinion before an Al evaluates, scores, judges it.
Even those tasked with watching us must realize that the short term goal is to make them redundant, to replace their weary eyes with an automaton that will never question the morality or ethics of their surveillance of us and thereby，their future selves. Trust them not to rat you out simply for extending the courtesy of assuming good intentions.
Guess why everything is now being recorded unconditionally： The hardest idea to contain is that we're all equal， which is incidentally the singular proof necessary that the 'net community transcends nations. It blows a hole through any| nationalist or elitist rhetoric, it turns into a leaky sieve any argument justifying war. You will find that those who oppose this view most likely do so because they have come to rely on control through fear. They'll find It hard to keep you afraid if you do not feel alone.
And you are far from alone. you've got a worldwide communications network at your fingertips. Say hi, stranger!
Merry Christmas!