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Comment by AdrianB1 | Hacker News Reader

I have no great job and I am paying more than 50% in taxes, including health care (not an insurance, but a payroll tax) that I get almost nothing from. That great change described in the article is bringing poor services to everyone, that is the end of it - I saw it in Eastern Europe, I saw it in Western Europe, but people don't want to talk about it. I live in Eastern Europe, decades in a socialist country and decades in a capitalist one, but all with socialized healthcare and that dream of free healthcare for all is an impossible utopia, you just need to think about it to realize.

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> socialized healthcare and that dream of free healthcare for all is an impossible utopia, you just need to think about it to realize

I can't understand this argument when Canada, England, France, Israel, and many other countries already have healthcare that is totally free to people at the point of service, and people rave about it. Can you explain why you still think it's utopian when it already exists?

Because of limited resources in Canada they had waiting times of several years (Google can point to multiple sources), UK or Nederlands a few months (I have friends working as doctors in these countries) or, in Eastern Europe, you need to get your own drugs from home because the hospital does not have it. With the perceived "free healthcare" the use increases a lot and the limited resources cannot scale up to infinite, so you either have a very long wait time or get the almost nothing left.

This is the situation in most of countries with this system. It is mathematically impossible to get what you dream of. In countries like USA the demand is heavily filtered by prices, so people get what they afford to, if you take the filters out you will be left with nothing very fast. I hate the system in US, but at least it gives a chance to people who can afford it; here, everybody is equally screwed. The only thing that works well here is giving birth, that is free, you can cover that by the state or federal in US too, but that's about the limit.

> I hate the system in US, but at least it gives a chance to people who can afford it;

This is the temporarily embarrassed millionaire argument.

The system absolutely sucks for you right now, but you're putting up with that, because one day, ONE GLORIOUS DAY, in the future, when you are filthy rich, you want to be able to skip all the queues.

(There are plenty of countries with socialized healthcare that has a parallel private healthcare system that allows you to pay more to receive better/faster/customized care, so that's not actually an argument.)

well it's your word against that of many other people I've seen raving about their system. how about a reliable source that says that people are unhappy with it?

If you don't want to search, try this: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wa.... Or on camera here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw

And there are more.

your sources are a conservative thinktank, and noted bigot and liar Steven Crowder

https://www.healthcare-now.org/blog/new-poll-shows-canadians... - Canadians Overwhelmingly Support Public Health Care

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/public-satisfaction-nh... - 60% public satisfaction with NHS

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2071992/ - "US has highest dissatisfaction with health care" (out of 7 industrialized countries they asked: Australia, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States)

I am talking about wait times, you are talking about satisfaction; they are different things.

You have demonstrated bad faith by moving the goalposts, therefore I am leaving this conversation.

>Because of limited resources in Canada they had waiting times of several years (Google can point to multiple sources), UK or Nederlands a few months

First, EVEN if what you are saying is true (spoiler alert- it's not). There are always private options if you really want to pay for it. So your argument of "there are wait times" basically goes away, because if you really want something "like you have now", you can pay and get it.

Next, what is better.. never being able to afford an elective/non urgent surgery, or wait 4-6 weeks (or perhaps even longer) for it? The point is you will get it and not go bankrupt.

And if it's urgent, you get it right away. Anything else you have heard is bullshit or has some other context you don't realize.

I mean, do you realize how many people in this country are living with conditions that probably even being able to go to a doctor on a regular basis would massively improve their life? But they can't afford it- even with "insurance".

>I hate the system in US, but at least it gives a chance to people who can afford it;

>here, everybody is equally screwed.

How do those two statements make any sense? You literally just said it gives a chance to people who can afford it... then claim everybody is equally screwed. No they aren't. It's like anything else- the top maybe 10-20% have no issues with it because they can afford it. So fuck everyone else right? The same top 10-20% who just love that the stock market booms during a pandemic because they can just continue to print more money.

Man your attitude pisses me off.

>The only thing that works well here is giving birth, that is free, you can cover that by the state or federal in US too

The hell are you talking about? "Insurance" covers birth yeah, but it'll still generally max out most peoples deductibles so it's still thousands and thousands of dollars... and heaven forbid you have a c-section or some other complicated birth.

Also, I lived in the UK for a number of years. We had so many trips to the doctor for our birth. Cost? Fucking 0. Yeah peoples taxes are a bit higher once you make descent money, but that's the damn point! People who can afford it are paying into a system that makes everyone better off.

We should be trying to make EVERYONE AS A WHOLE better off, not only the top 10-20% which is apparently what your logic is.

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