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For what it's worth, I agree with you, and I'm shocked at the attitudes here. Don't worry, you're not the crazy one.

I wrote a few lines of speculation, but all of them would piss people off. Suffice to say, just ignore the negativity and express your opinions thoughtfully, as you did here.

> We need to change attitudes towards sex work to remove the shame rather than stop entry into a massively popular and universal industry that crosses all cultures.

Legalizing, but heavily regulating vices is definitely the way to go. I think a lot of European countries have good models for this (Switzerland and Amsterdam come to mind). The demand for these things is going to exist, and is usually best if it is legalized and put into red light districts / out of public, etc.

That said, social tolerance should not devolve into some sort of forced social acceptance for the "liberation" of sex work. Just as any woman should be free to engage in sex work, I should be free to judge her for it (just as my girlfriend would be justified in asking about whether I ever purchased sex work). Just as anyone should be able to eat what they want, health consequences be damned, I should be able to call them "fat" instead of whatever PC word people use these days like "rotund" or "plus-sized", etc. Both of those are choices, and adults have to accept the consequences of those choices (unlike inherent things like sexual orientation or skin color). I cannot go and get a bunch of face tattoos and then whine about lack of acceptance when I get turned down for client-facing tech jobs.

You can't have your cake (engage in sex work, on either side of the transaction) and eat it too (complain about how society does not accept your decision with open arms). It's ironic that folks who are all about "freedom" are more than willing to call the Thought Police because society doesn't agree with them.

There's also a difference between certain things that had been considered taboo / forbidden but are now accepted vs. sex work and drugs: the ends do not justify the means. Allowing gay marriage provides an ends (i.e. more people, LGBTQ folks, who can live on equal legal footing as hetero folks) that more than justify the means (accepting that societally and legally). Legalizing drugs that allow folks to alter their conscience more than justifies the legalizing and shift in attitude.

What are the ends / results for sex work? While certain sex workers may make an inordinate amount of cash (which is certainly their right to do in a free market exchange), sex work does not provide a net benefit to society. It ruins relationships (e.g. infidelity with porn or physical sex acts, harming unwitting partners and children of the transgressors) and prevents them from even starting (e.g. stunted personal development due to excessive porn use, as I have seen in a lot of my male colleagues who were the first generation to grow up with high speed internet porn and are now in their early 30s and have no idea how to connect with a partner as a human being and not just a sex object; or in women who sell their bodies one way or another and then end up in no relationship or in an abusive or otherwise substandard relationship because they neglected to build career and interpersonal skills that could benefit them and their pursuit towards self-actualization).

Although these harms cannot and should not be regulated against by the government, it would be reckless to encourage ignorance of the societal harms.

I thought a lot about your comment. This is what bugs me:

That said, social tolerance should not devolve into some sort of forced social acceptance for the "liberation" of sex work. Just as any woman should be free to engage in sex work, I should be free to judge her for it

What exactly are you judging her for? For being comfortable with her body?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Just as a sex worker can choose to engage in their activities because they are of the opinion that it is okay, one can certainly choose to have a negative opinion of their choice. As long as those opinions don't turn into adverse action (e.g. banning one's rights to engage in sex work) I don't see what the consequences of having opinions is.

Personally, I choose to avoid people who choose the easy path in life and refuse to accept reality or be accountable for their actions. Whether it's people refusing to admit that they have an addiction (to porn, drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, video games) or women engaging in sex work and then complaining of the consequences (e.g. not being able to find the partner they want after they quit doing sex work), people who don't take responsibility for their choices given their circumstances, whatever they may be, are unpleasant to be around at best (often complaining about how unfair things are) and are dangerous at worst. If the circumstances are that some woman does sex work because she comes from an impoverished background and desperately needs financial freedom, I understand why she may choose sex work (though I really wish there were institutions in place so that she didn't have to make that choice; late-stage capitalism has made the world a harsh place). If she does it because she can make a lot of money and wants nice luxuries, I know that that sort of person and I would have no overlap in our worldview. As another example, I decided to cut out some close male friends of mine in certain athletic endeavors when they started using performance-enhancing drugs.

It's nothing about some form of prudish morality. It's about not wanting to associate with anyone who makes key choices in their life that I think reveal a certain morality that I don't agree with. Everyone has this right (to free association) and I don't think any sort forced association should be palatable to anyone living in a country with modern governance.

>Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

Of course. It's practically axiomatic. Which is why it is strange you brought up one particular opinion.

> What are the ends / results for sex work? While certain sex workers may make an inordinate amount of cash (which is certainly their right to do in a free market exchange), sex work does not provide a net benefit to society. It ruins relationships (e.g. infidelity with porn or physical sex acts, harming unwitting partners and children of the transgressors) and prevents them from even starting (e.g. stunted personal development due to excessive porn use, as I have seen in a lot of my male colleagues who were the first generation to grow up with high speed internet porn and are now in their early 30s and have no idea how to connect with a partner as a human being and not just a sex object; or in women who sell their bodies one way or another and then end up in no relationship or in an abusive or otherwise substandard relationship because they neglected to build career and interpersonal skills that could benefit them and their pursuit towards self-actualization).

A lot of what you said makes some sense but I definitely lost you there. If you are seriously disabled, your partner has died, you are very old, or have any sort of issue that makes it impossible to have a normal sex life or have any chance of finding a partner that is young and attractive, this is certainly ethically OK to trade money for temporary sexual activity. This is a free exchange between consenting partners.

"Net benefit to society" is the dumbest part of what you said here. By definition two consenting adults trading anything - baseball cards, lawn mowing, sexual activity - is mutually beneficial or they would not have conducted the exchange. Society is better overall when your arbitrary restrictions on what two consenting people can do is removed, as my beliefs on what should be banned are different from yours and different from the guy down the street, so it's better to default that anything that doesn't harm me and is between two consenting people is fine for them.

I get an overall attitude from you that sex is something morally bad. I am friends with a pair of swingers and have witnessed them meet another couple who was into the same thing, leave the party to consummate the relationship, and return a few hours later as if nothing had happened. For some people sex is just something they do and is separate from emotional commitment.

The fact some people watch porn and cannot connect with others intimately does not mean everyone is this way. Just as not everyone who tries cocaine becomes a drug addict, not everyone who watches porn becomes sexually broken. My wife and I have a very healthy sexual relationship and we are both OK with each other viewing erotic material, either together or personally.

I think you need to broaden your horizons about what the totality of human experience is and accept there are many who live very fulfilling lives unencumbered by arbitrary rules on sexual expression.

{part 2}

It really breaks my heart in these comments when people say they'd encourage their daughters to engage in sex work if they chose it (or, on the opposite side of the coin, encourage their sons to hire prostitutes or explore their sexuality through isolated encounters with algorithmically suggested, endlessly-streaming high-def porn videos). These activities have serious consequences on one's future due to social stigma (for engaging in sex work) or one's social growth / personal development due to neuroanatomical changes (primarily men, but women as well I'd venture). Whereas my Irish Catholic ancestors avoided broaching the subject through religious damnation and even more extreme social stigma, it feels like the version of this non-conversation that is had under the guise of "free sexuality", i.e. "just explore your sexual urges on your own I'm sure you'll figure it out", is equally problematic. The pendulum has swung too far from overbearing guidance to absolutely none at all (and, in fact, encouragement). In the middle is where the conversations should be had. The conversation has to be based in reality, i.e. that actions have consequences (social stigma of sex work or the rewiring of one's brain to hypernormal stimuli during formative years), that everyone has a complex web of feelings, and that understanding how those feelings and emotions involving one's sex life is very important for long-term fulfillment.

As I think we both agree, the best decisions and interactions are made when all parties involved are made fully aware of the benefits and consequences of each course of action. Pretending that sexuality is an exception to this is unwise at best.

I understand that a lot of the most inspiring people in the world were the ones who had a vision of a better reality and brought it into being (Ghandi, MLK, both Roosevelt presidents, Nelson Mandela, Steve Jobs, etc), but encouraging kids to take that path when it goes against social stigma and neuroscience in regards to human sexuality will almost certainly not result in their success.

{part 1}

I apologize for going too far here. I'm certainly bringing my own bias to bear which is worth mentioning: some relatives of mine have had their marriages blow up because their husbands were engaging in sexual conduct outside of their relationship behind my relative' backs. The amount I care about my extended family and the effect it had/has on them (especially my (step-?) nieces and nephews) certainly biases me a lot.

Sex is great, and an important part of life. I fundamentally agree that action between two consenting parties that does not affect any third parties (e.g. my relatives / their kids in the above example) is totally fine, from drugs to porn to swingers or anything else. Even though I prefer monogamy, I don't think it's some societal downfall if people engage in activity I wouldn't participate in myself.

However, I think it's hard to deny biology, specifically brain development in children and the effects of porn and (separately) the drive to reproduce.

Brain development: I find this disconnect between people who are roughly >35 years old and those who are younger: men in the latter category grew up having access to unlimited video porn on the various "tube sites" since their preteen years, whereas in the former category these tube sites are something one likely stumbled upon as in early adulthood or later. Exposure to this type of pornography (vs. something like a VHS tape or a playboy issue) in the younger cohort, specifically for men, is very different from the older cohort's experience; whereas the older group learned about their sexuality in an environment that was not very different from that of prior generations, the younger group received (and receives) a level of stimulation through these tube sites that wires their brains differently at a formative point in their lives (roughly, the teen years). The unlimited, unfiltered exposure to every type of sexual act under the sun, without context or education, influences how the younger cohort (especially men) views sex. Consensual sex, be it swinging or porn or anything else, is not what is taught; porn tends to portray that sexual acts are about self-fulfillment, not mutual fulfillment. I say "tends to" because I must admit I don't know about the myriad categories that must exist now, but I'm guessing the category of "person A and person B do [some sexual act] and then cuddle while expressing their love for each other and discussing their future plans" is not near the top of that list.

Reproduction drive: the drive to procreate is hard-wired as one of, if not the most important aspects of all animals, and the human brain is built upon a very deep animal "core" (Thinking, Fast and Slow [0] gives a good deal of evidence about the ancient and modern brains). That proclivity, combined with the ease of access to porn, creates a problematic situation. The things you mentioned are either a) difficult to access or have legal consequences (e.g. cocaine) but have a strong influence on one's neurology or b) easy to access but are less prone to activating some primal drive inadvertently (e.g. lawn mowing, baseball cards, though I'm sure even something like baseball cards can become an addiction). Porn falls into both categories. This ease of feeling good or relieved through porn can definitely cause addiction (see all of the nofap stuff on reddit or on other forums). The desire to exchange money for instantly feeling like someone desires you, up to and including in a sexual way (i.e. through prostitution, or perhaps some very intimate only fans interaction), can certainly drive men to eagerly lust after such options if the only other option is to face up to the hard facts about one's choices or shortcomings in life (although I posit that this latter action will lead to more fulfillment).

On top of all of this, you have tech companies, who have honed their suggestion algorithms to suggest the perfect video to each viewer, exploiting these neurologic drives to increase view time in order to get more ad revenue. Just as these algorithms have thrust fringe conspiracies and fear or anger inducing videos towards people on youtube, it has thrust videos that exploit the human sexual drive towards the viewers, which in turn causes more of such videos to be produced. As I stated in the paragraph about brain development, I doubt these videos encapsulate very many, if any, of the important aspects of healthy sexual interaction (e.g. open and honest discussions about what boundaries to draw, the meaning one sees in sex).

> Society is better overall when your arbitrary restrictions on what two consenting people can do is removed, as my beliefs on what should be banned are different from yours and different from the guy down the street, so it's better to default that anything that doesn't harm me and is between two consenting people is fine for them.

I agree with you that these things (drug usage, sexual acts) should /not/ be banned. Any sort of government intervention is certainly a net loss in terms of the outcome of both the individuals involved in the activity /and/ society as a whole. There are too many people in prison in the name of the war on drugs (costing money in both the short term to house them, and in the long term when counting the contributions they could have been making, not to mention the ethical malfeasance of it), Alan Turing was chemically castrated for being gay, etc. When the government gets involved in people's choices that don't harm other people, it generally ends poorly.

However, I think it's dangerous to expect that most people, especially adolescents, will successfully navigate their discovery and understanding of their sexuality and preferences when they are exposed to hypernormal sexual stimuli that tries to hijack their sexual urges to turn their watch time into profit. I don't think that these tubes sites have anyone's sexual health in mind, both the consumers and producers of the content. It sounds like you and your wife (and your swinging friends) have come to a healthy equilibrium, and that is fantastic! However, I think that's an exception, a bright light at the end of a lot of understanding and communication and potentially fraught conversations, when the rule (for almost everyone else) is secrecy and self-fulfillment.

> If you are seriously disabled, your partner has died, you are very old, or have any sort of issue that makes it impossible to have a normal sex life or have any chance of finding a partner that is young and attractive, this is certainly ethically OK to trade money for temporary sexual activity. This is a free exchange between consenting partners.

I have lived in a country with legalized prostitution, and I agree that sex work can be an important substitute for (typically men) fulfilling needs. When I was trying to learn "erotic vocabulary" in the country's language, I would actually read the text from the "escort ad / review" sites. The ads will specifically mention "pensioners / disabled welcome!" and the reviews would be almost heartbreakingly touching, like "Svetlana made me feel vibrant and youthful, in a way I haven't felt since my wife died". I agree that these transactions are beneficial to both parties and serve an important purpose (financial, emotional, physical) in both parties' lives.

However, there is a reason that the reviewers use pseudonyms and the prostitutes typically hide or blur their face in their photos on the sites: there is a social stigma against this type of exchange for both parties. This social stigma may very well close doors for one's future prospects, and pretending otherwise does a disservice to both participants. Understanding that one may make a lot of money (for women) or be able to achieve sexual stimulation with almost no effort (for the Johns) may feel good right now, but that part of one's life may very well stain one's record for future endeavors. For example, I know that anecdotes are not data, but I have not met a man or woman who would be totally okay with it if their partner would have been involved in sex work; most would consider it a deal breaker. By choosing to engage in sex work (producing or consuming), an enormous swath of potential future partners is eliminated. I don't know what kind of public awareness campaign would be needed to change public opinion on such a massive level (i.e. to become okay with sex work), but I know that whinging about how unfair it is that people have different opinions (i.e. a stigma against sex work) does not help.

It's not a judgment on the participants in an absolute sense, but pretending that there are no negative consequences in terms of the judgment they will likely receive from other people sets people up for a harsh reality shock. It's even worse when we encourage the participants to stand against the prevailing forces of human nature (i.e. all the evolutionary biology stuff), a quixotic endeavor if there ever was one.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

How would you feel if your underage daughter did not want to work in porn, but someone covertly recorded her having sex and uploaded it to pornhub?

Because that's what was happening: mass unconsensual sharing of images, including images of children.

Let's start at the beginning.

Teenagers are secretly recording girls on there phones having sex with them.

They use a phone and save the video.

They share clips with friends on snapchat

They send full length clips via google drive or other file sharing programs.

A friend may upload to pornhub and random people can see. Under 200 videos in 3 years were found.

You think by shutting down pornhub it stop this? Your daughter is safe? You are focusing on the least important part of the chain. If pornhub doesn't exist this is shared on xxxvideos or vk or someother service.

If you really wanted to stop the problem you have to halt the chain of events earlier.

It was already happening 40 years ago with VHS cameras.

I'd say that knowing that everyone in school saw you having sex it's worse.

If the problem is "mass unconsensual sharing of images" social networks are a lot worse than any porn website.

There are tens of unauthorized pictures of people faces and properties on social networks, not counting kid pictures.

Does PornHub keeps a list of shadow profiles like FB does?

I don't think so.

If I was a parent my biggest issue would be the "not consensual" part of the story.

Because it's rape.

Google also indexes and returns results for websites that host not only illegal underage porn but terrorism websites, racist websites, etc. and profit from it but we give them a pass? You are making a “what about this??” argument and ignoring that they have mechanisms in place to remove illegal content which any website that allows user-generated content cannot control.

My critique is more about the wide disapproval of the porn industry itself, which you can already see in the comments of this post, which I find both absurd and harmful to the vast majority of legitimate employees of this very popular and mainstream industry.

Pornhub was widely damaging to the “the vast majority of legitimate employees“ in the industry. It built itself by stealing their work using the paper-thin ruse of “user-uploaded” videos, pushing down wages, working conditions and establishing itself as a quasi-monopoly player who could further set terms to its advantage and against sex worker and smaller companies. This has all been quite well documented.

The conflation of puritanical objections to pornography with opposition to their regime of theft and worse is nothing other than a cynical maneuver meant to distract from the operation and consequences of their enterprise.

While I kinda feel the same like you ... I have a 3.5 year old daughter now and if she later wants to become a prostitute or work in porn, I'd support her. There are some people that really enjoy this kind of work, for example check out this interview with Lisa Ann [0] ... she really enjoyed her work in porn but was very careful to not catch diseases and it was always a worry for her.

But if my daughter would consider one of those jobs, I would make sure she would be very aware of the risks and I'm not just talking about the STDs. I'd make her aware that it could be extremely hard to find a different job, especially after a career in porn. And also, if my daughter would get children of her own, children could be bullied if they discover their mother worked in porn.

Also, it does seem a lot of actors and actresses in porn are from broken families and that is kind of sad.

---

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPT1TKFmv_o

> I have absolutely no problems with pornography and if my own daughter decided this was the industry she wanted to enter I would help jumpstart her career anyway I could just as I would any career she chose.

> My wife and I are very free spirits and the previous HN discussions on Pornhub / NYT article made me feel like I was taking crazy pills and living in 1850’s Victorian England. The pearl clutching was so intense I was very worried the pearls would break from pressure!

Maybe because almost no man of any quality whatsoever would want to raise a daughter to be a whore, used and abused in all degrading possible ways. Funny that.

There is nothing "free" or "progressive" or any 2020 buzzword that would make this argument anything other than disgusting. As if raising your daughter to be used in gangbangs and things like that is anything other than pure form of degeneracy and the absolute lowest of the low.

Some people think that just because they are capable of doing the god awful nasty things that no sane man or woman would do, that they are somehow "progressive" as if that takes some special skill or something...

What skill do women need to have in porn? Fake tits, fake lips, fake asses in some cases, fake everything.. they just get paid a lot of money because there are not enough insane people that want to do it.

Fathers talking about daughters being literal whores. Jumpstarting... What is happening with this world..