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Comment by tuyguntn | Hacker News Reader

if JetBrains people are reading this, I want to say THANK YOU! You saved lots of developer time with IDE, then Kotlin language. I use Golang, Python and Database IDEs, and they are really nice and time saving, can't imagine how much time you guys saved to Java developers where everything is reflection based annotations and deep level of abstract class/interface implementations. (last time when I worked with Java in VSCode, it was almost useless for autocomplete, because too many things rely on annotation based code generation)

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JetBrains is one of my favourite ever companies! A few years back I switched from Visual Studio + ReSharper to Rider, and haven't looked back - it's such a fantastic, fully-featured, stable product. I have a personal license that let's me use ReSharper, Rider, dotCover, dotMemory (love this!), dotTrace. Some of the best money I've ever spent, and I happily renew year on year. I also love the pricing model that reduces the cost after years 1 and 2 as a loyalty bonus.

And in the main, JetBrains actually seem to pay attention to what customers ask for in their online feedback site.

I'm looking to get into either Go or Rust soon, and I'll definitely be using GoLand/CLion.

> it's such a […] stable product

Am I using a different IDE? I'm dealing with bugs in their refactoring engine almost every day (at least in Python and TypeScript); I need to invalidate the cache every other week because something something is not working; it's 2020 and I still can't configure my IDE deterministically through text files (which regularly results in situations where building the project works fine for colleague X but not for me, even though we seem to have the same config, so I end up having to delete the project and create it again). And don't even get me started about CPU usage…

That's not to say that Jetbrains IDEs don't provide incredible value. They do. But I still think they leave a lot to be desired when it comes to stability.

You’re working with dynamic languages; it’s a hard problem.

The jetbrains tools do a pretty great job with typescript and when you use annotations in pycharm.... or anything where the types can be rigorously determined; but, obviously, it’s not perfect when the type system says “anything is fine”.

As for building the project; Python just totally sucks at reproducible builds. I don’t think pycharm can fix the entire packaging ecosystem.

So, fair... it’s not perfect; but compared to what? Have you used tools with better support, better stability? Better tooling?

It’s a pretty high bar to clear to say the editor isn’t completely perfect.

Yeah yeah, it uses Java, it eats your ram and the cpu can go crazy, sometimes you need to reset the cache or delete your entire .idea folder.

Eh.

I also wish it was better at some things, but I still love it; what’s the alternative? Visual studio? Hahaha~~~~

And I remember how impressed I was many years ago when I first tried their Rubymine. So magical it made Ruby feel almost like a typed language! :)

> You’re working with dynamic languages; it’s a hard problem.

It's not that hard a problem. At least TypeScript is statically typed and in Python we're using type annotations everywhere. Besides, the bugs I was talking about mostly concern imports (I move file.py from A/ to B/ and PyCharm forgets to update `import A.file` to `import B.file`), and renamings (PyCharm suddenly renames some random variable deep inside dependencies like Tensorflow, too, so I end up having to re-setup my entire Python environment afterwards).

The thing is: Those auto-suggestions for imports work totally fine and code navigation via Ctrl+click works fine, too. So PyCharm does interpret the import statements correctly and I'm at a loss as to why the refactoring doesn't work then, too. Maybe auto-completion and refactoring are two completely separate systems?

I’m not gonna deny it’s frustrating to see quality of life stuff like “don’t refactor stuff from packages!” unaddressed year after year.

...but I think it is a tricky problem.

For example Black[1] is a very carefully crafted project that does an excellent job, but it fails at refactoring files just to apply lints with “inconsistent code generated” on some projects and files; and that’s just apply limiting rules.

...but, I for whatever reason, the JetBrains refactoring for static languages (c#, Java, kotlin) does seem significantly superior.

[1] https://github.com/psf/black

> can't configure my IDE deterministically through text files

Yes, you can[1]. It will even sync automatically with whatever git repo you store the settings in.

> regularly results in situations where building the project works fine for colleague X but not for me

This is a problem with relying on the IDE host to also be the host of your applications. Your repo should contain build settings, not your IDE.

You should switch to Docker or Pulumi or [insert declarative build tool here] -- something more deterministic and consistent across users.

> I'm dealing with bugs in their refactoring engine

As others have said, this is much more likely to be a problem with dynamic languages. I haven't done much with Python, but I've never had a TypeScript refactoring problem in 3+ years of using it as my primary language and IntelliJ as my primary IDE.

> And don't even get me started about CPU usage…

I have a much bigger issue with memory usage, but it's still not a big problem (and I think it's a memory leak in a single plugin anyway).

Also, JetBrains seems to have (correctly) assumed that dev time is much more expensive than dev hardware.

If I have someone whose slow IDE drains 1 hr of work per week and costs $75/hr, then it's only going to be a few weeks before it was more cost effective for me to upgrade her CPU than to worry about the IDE at all.

1. https://www.jetbrains.com/help/rider/Sharing_Your_IDE_Settin...

> Yes, you can[1]. It will even sync automatically with whatever git repo you store the settings in.

No you cannot. Note I was being very precise in my wording. While you can now export your Jetbrains IDE's config as a git repo (or zip file) of text files, you still cannot configure the IDE through text files (like in SublimeText) because 1) the text files' format is not documented anywhere and likely to change in the future without further warning and 2) Jetbrains also writes changes to the git repo automatically. I want to be in control of my config, though. (Sure, I could roll back any changes but I think that's very sub-optimal solution.)

> This is a problem with relying on the IDE host to also be the host of your applications. Your repo should contain build settings, not your IDE.

Well, yes, we do have all our build scripts etc. in our repo but that doesn't keep people (myself included) from running and debugging things from within their IDE because it's a lot more comfortable.

> Note I was being very precise in my wording

I noted your wording, which was not as narrow as your intention. You just said you wanted deterministic, text-based config, which JetBrains has.

I've used VS Code's text-file config, before there was a GUI for most of the config options, and I actually found it to be pretty frustrating. A good GUI is a lot better than editing text, even with the IDE helping you stay within the schema.

JetBrains IDE's probably fail the worst in that regard, I agree; but once you have a config you like, it's easy to keep it consistent.

> but that doesn't keep people (myself included) from running and debugging things from within their IDE because it's a lot more comfortable

Again, these aren't mutually exclusive. You can run/debug code in a Docker container[1][2]. The IDE experience is exactly the same (click the Debug icon or use the shortcut, set breakpoints, whatever), it's just that the VM is running your code instead of your dev environment.

1. Typescript - https://blog.entrostat.com/debugging-a-typescript-project-in...

2. Python - https://www.jetbrains.com/help/pycharm/using-docker-as-a-rem...

I haven't used PyCharm or WebStorm (you mention Python & Typescript, so I guess you're using them), only Rider and peripheral products like dotMemory and dotTrace. I mainly use Rider on Windows, but occasionally use it on MacOS too.

I've encountered the odd issue with EAP versions of Rider (to be expected of course), but the release versions have been rock solid. Coming from Visual Studio, it's been a godsend!

You may just need to tweak your cache & RAM settings. I had similar issues here, and I just juiced the RAM to 4096 (that's 4 GB, a number I chose arbitrarily). Haven't had an issue since.

clion is honestly the only product I get excited about new releases.

This last one with partial compile, and specific debug loops, it is an awesome product!

How is the perf / mem usage in Rider vs VS w/ Resharper?

Rider is way snappier. With VS, I'm very used to slowdowns and even total freezes for several seconds (which people like to attribute to ReSharper, but IME they happen plenty even without ReSharper) - for a big, full-features IDE, once Rider has started, it feels really snappy, and puts to bed the long-held beliefs that Java is slow.

Just opened a big solution in both VS and Rider to confirm:

  - VS was really laggy after opening, pinning all 8 Xeon E3 cores for 2 full minutes!
  - VS memory sitting at 1.3GB, plus another 0.9GB for ReSharper
  - Rider took 22 seconds to load the solution, then used a bit of CPU for 30s (but was totally responsive in that period)
  - Rider memory sitting at 1.1GB

So assuming you use ReSharper, Rider uses a lot less memory, otherwise it's above the same. But still, for me Rider is way more responsive for editing, debugging, everything. And more stable too.

I'm gonna give the complex answer:

- Overall, Perf is better in Rider than VS w/Resharper

- Memory usage for a single solution might be higher than VS.

- There are scenarios where Rider may have much higher memory usage but -vastly- better performance. VS is only 32 bit, There's only so much process space it gets (2GB or 3GB, can't recall offhand) at which point it's gotta swap whether it wants to or not. Rider is 64 bit, so it will be less afraid to allocate if it makes sense on the hardware (and the JVM tuning deities.)

- You can load multiple solutions in Rider with much less penalty than you'd expect. Rider normally runs as a single Main process with Resharper/.Net/etc hosts for each open solution. This seems to give me lower memory usage than Visual Studio.

- With Akka.NET (53 projects, C# and F#) and Akka.Persistence.Linq2Db (6 projects) open, Rider sits at 1598MB nominally, goes between 1.2GB and 2GB, the Resharper subprocesses (already included in those totals) sit between 300-800MB and 60-200MB.

- Visual Studio 2019 with Resharper and Intellicode -DISABLED- shows up as 1363MB for Akka.Net, 653MB for Akka.Persistence.Linq2db, for a total of 2016MB.

Side note, Rider has been open for days with me doing all sorts of nasty things like switching between branches without unloading (Oh yeah, come for the lower memory usage, stay for the hot-reloading.) Those VS numbers were right after I opened, by comparison.

From my experience it eats up more memory. My project i avg around 1.2 gb in VS. vs 2.5 in Rider. But the application is much more responsive.

Once you start opening multiple Solutions in Rider, Your total memory usage will get inverted, And Rider is still plenty snappy. :)

How are you measuring the memory usage of each?

VS is much better today but it's still a 32-bit process that's limited to < 4GB of addressable memory. Jetbrains has been on a multiyear journey (documented with fantastic blog posts) to move Resharper out-of-process but there's still overhead in maintaining separate systems working on the same project space.

Rider bypasses all of the process limitations and syncing overhead by using the Resharper/C# logic exclusively, and is much faster and more responsive as a result.

Also VS has been slowly copying Resharper features but is still far behind. I mostly use VS today for heavy debugging where it still excels.

I've used it on a 250-projects solution, and performance is much better than VS+R# or VS alone. Still not recommended, obviously. On smaller projects, I find also it snappier. It uses as much CPU as VS, and eats up more RAM.

I just bought a personal IDE licence a few days ago. JetBrains makes one of the best IDEs I've ever used, and I consider that 100€ well spent.

Agreed - JetBrains is one of those companies where their products speak for themselves, and I happily pay every year.

Absolutely money well spent.

Yes! My JetBrains Ultimate renews every November and I get a little giddy in anticipation of paying them for another year. It’s just such an amazing value. JetBrains is so good it’s like finding money on the sidewalk.

JetBrains has a great product but if you are really serious about "giddy in anticipation of paying them for another year" why not buy another subscription every few months? Plan a party and invite the neighbours.

If you REALLY want to treat yourself, let me give you an address to send some bitcoin to!

And their pricing model is great. All products subscription stars $250 but after 2 years its only $150!

Agreed, and the education pack is so good. Perpetually free as long as you're a student has been a lifesaver—honestly can't live without CLion and PyCharm at this point.

I know it's mental. Their yearly cost pays for itself in productivity boost in like 1-2 days. It's such good value ...

One of the few tools I gladly pay for a yearly subscription even if I only get a few weeks use out of it.

At a time I'd purchase both JRebel and IntelliJ. JRebel had a really "aggressive" sales team that would call and email about renewals. Jetbrains has never had to call me, their product sells itself, for me. I no longer use JRebel.

I love Intellij and no longer use JRebel, and yeah I knew better than to pick up the phone when their sales team was calling.

But that's not why I stopped using JRebel, I stopped using JRebel because 10 years ago I worked on monolithic code bases that got deployed to application servers where a build and deploy cycle took 30 minutes, if I did the build with no unit tests. Even though it took constant fiddling to keep JRebel working and a hot deploy worked on maybe half the changes I made, it saved me many hours.

Now I work on microservices with embedded app servers where a build/deploy cycle is 30 seconds, no need for JRebel. Sorry sales guys!

Yup! Martin Fowler mentioned them because they were one of the first people making automated refactoring tools. That sold me on their IDE, and I've been a happy user ever since 2001. Thee days I have the personal version of their all-you-can-eat license and it has always been worth the money.

I'm delighted that their smarts and dedication in building a high-quality, user-focused product has paid off in a big way for them.

IntelliJ was crashing repeatedly for a few days and I was really sad I would have to use a different IDE until I found out I could change which VM was used. I've had IntelliJ even tho my company would have got my PHPStorm just so I could code during my free time in other languages in comfort.

Some people get a bit weirded out about the multiple IDE situation (mostly folks whose current day to day is VS Code with extensions).

Usually that goes away when you get them to try some of the IDEs, the experience is second to none (as far as IDEs that work extremely well out of the box go).

The amount of times I've got praised for writing neat C# code that was Resharper doing its magic :P

The comparison to the bad old days when the IDE answer was always "Install Eclipse and this set of poorly maintained language plugins" is night and day.

The dollar-a-day I spend on the Jetbrains all-products subscription more than pays for itself.

I was one of those people up until around a couple years ago. Now I don't even know what I thought was such a big deal. The Jetbrains Toolbox makes it really simple to launch and update the individual IDEs.

My employer pays for the ultimate license, but I will absolutely pay for it once I move on.

They're also one of the best IT employers in Moscow and St Petersburg, and guys working there create a lot of value for IT community both local, and russian-speaking in general. You don't even have to work there to feel the impact on the whole programming culture here.

Moscow and St Petersberg... that is interesting. I'm a fan of their tools as well, but it is good to learn the Russian angle and take it into account.

The 'Russian angle'? What's this, other Russians have done things you dislike, so you pre judge these other Russians?

Speaking as a russian, I have exactly the same prejudice. Our government has done a lot of completely awful stuff in the last 10-15 years and still has wide popular support, so it's only natural that we are held accountable for it.

Also, any company that has significant presence in Russia is subject to Russian influence. These people have ways to make you do what they want if you or your close ones are inside the borders, so you'd be wise to mistrust any software that comes from here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom#Epithet

Stop projecting american experience with racism towards other nations, please.

Well, it is a Russian company (although not legally, for obvious reasons). Kotlin is named after an island just of the coast of St Petersburg, for example.

JetBrains is a Czech company because the founders lived in Prague at the time (maybe they are still living there, no idea).

Most of the staff is Russian though which sort of makes it a Russian company I guess?

what are you insinuating hahaha

if JetBrains people are reading this, I love your products, but waaaay more code navigation and pane splitting/management features need to have keyboard shortcuts.

VS Code gets this very right. It's generally not as powerful or friendly as JetBrains products, but the far superior keyboard navigation experience gets me to attempt to switch once a month or so.

Not a JetBrains employee, but which features are you specifically looking for? I've never found a single option in the IDE that's available through a menu that cannot be assigned a shortcut.

I just want them to make a stand-alone git client - their 3 way merge for merge conflicts is second to none.

You can use only the merge functionality - it can be launched from git (via mergetool).

I tried to convert from VS Code to PyCharm a while back - I didn't (too familiar with VSC), but I stuck with the merge view for some time - it's absolutely amazing!

I think its a step down from Beyond Compare, I've set that up as the diff tool in Intellij before, I might have to do that again in my current environment.

Absolutely! It's an amazing tool, but in my opinion the tight integration actually makes it harder to use at times.

Indeed. And it seems that it is quite separate already UI wise. So why not.

Java in VSCode works completely fine even with annotations, its the Eclipse language server. You should really give it another shot.

In fact for all of my use cases it performs better than IntelliJ because it isn't trying to be 200 different tools at one time. With JDK 15 and ZGC my project only uses 250mb of ram for the language server where IntelliJ pushes over 4GB.

JetBrains makes your machine sound like a jet with the CPU fan, that's for sure.

Java support has been much much better for the last year in vscode.

Jetbrains products are amazing if you _need_ and IDE. Otherwise you're much better off using VIM or Emacs as they are open source, have tons of customization and plugins available and also they are simply lighter, faster and are available on all unix platforms.

Since I've been testing both on linux on an older laptop (Core i5-3317U, 10GB RAM, Sata SSD): Emacs + lsp (Omnisharp) is not noticably faster than JetBrains Rider. Both are slow and at times lagging on this hardware. In the end I just use Rider on that laptop since if it's lagging either way, Rider is still a more complete C# ide for me. My laptop from work is a Dell Precision (Core i7-7820HQ, 32GB RAM, NVMe SSD) and is more powerful: it's a pleasure to use Rider on that machine.

Intellij Idea Community Edition is also open source, and lots of plugins are too

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