So, in the public interest, go Lenovo! Especially considering the slime-ball tactics that Nokia apparently used here.
So, in the public interest, go Lenovo! Especially considering the slime-ball tactics that Nokia apparently used here.
Look what happened with web standards. Developing and testing new web standards requires building reference implementations in browsers. Browsers are expensive to develop, so the standards are controlled by a handful of companies like Google and Apple. But the standards are free to implement. Is that better for the public? Maybe, but the public interest analysis is more complex than “free to implement.”
There is no such thing as “free.” R&D will be monetized somehow—the question is how. Different monetization approaches have different and non-obvious impacts on the public interest. Consider for example the shift away from paying for software to giving it away “free.” You used to pay Symbian $5-10 bucks per phone for an OS. Android you can get for free. But Symbian didn’t build an advertising platform into the core of each phone. Monetization matters.
There is such a thing as free. People who write Free software are doing R&D without any plans for monetization.
Codecs are software. Software has about zero manufacturing or distribution cost. Development does take effort. Very much effort for modern CODECs, but it's one thing to cover development costs and another to collect rent from - err monetize - a "standard".
AV1 is supported by Google, sure, but also companies like Netflix and Apple. If Google's business model for YouTube was to charge a subscription fee to everyone like Netflix, wouldn't they still have the same incentive to develop AV1?
This is really commoditize your complement. Which works regardless of the revenue source in the primary market.
I’m saying that if your business model is free software, it needs to be monetized some other way. Advertising is one way, which has become common. How that happens needs to be part of the public interest analysis.
Mutual self-interest is a good, solid business model. JPEG was developed long ago by a bunch of companies who needed a good, standard image format. Now AV1 is being developed by a bunch of companies who want to use less bandwidth for the video and will save truckloads of money not paying patent license fees. Not to mention standarization, economies of scale, and interoperability benefits. A company simply not having to pay the fees for something proprietary can be all the funding needed to support a free software version.
Free software development generally only needs about 1/10th as much monetization to begin with. You may get to start with the works of other people; others using your work builds the user base quickly without paying to advertise and sell your product; you'll get a lot of free testing/debugging/code feedback; etc.
Rather than monetize the software, fund its creators. They, along with everyone else, get great use value out of the software and they are empowered to live, live, do, play, and generally be.
They may also make money using the software to do whatever it is other people will pay for. That is the case for one project I contribute to on Pateron. Use value is real high and a community of users is funding the developer.
I am supporting a couple of other projects that way right now. I've got good developers on Patreon, and I'm happy to know that they're developing the software that I value. That's the end of it.
I'm also happy to know that software is out there for general use too. I don't really care if everyone's paying. Would I do care about is the developers are getting paid.
I think more developers should communicate where they are at in terms of support, and I think a whole lot more of us need to put small amounts of money toward making sure those developers are okay.
Xiph.Org's 2011's letter to the FTC directly discussions "industry standard" unethical conduct like effectively concealing what would later be claimed to be a patent encumbrance from a standard setting organization, exactly as Nokia did in this case.
https://www.xiph.org/press/2011/ftc/ftc-comments-20110614.pd...
Developing the technology that has become the standard takes a lot of resources; you have spent them.
Standard bodies usually compare several technologies and pick one; you have risked that your development effort would not make it into the standard, and would be a dead end.
It looks a bit like bidding for a military contract. Did General Dynamics receive unearned windfall when USAF accepted their bid for a fighter jet, and kept paying for each F-16 they ordered? Surely the price of each included a part of the R&D costs.
Planting a flag next to General Dynamics driveway so that you can collect a percentage off every aircraft that goes buy is rent seeking.
If patent holders were required to specifically identify and price the technology they encumber standards with such that the standards setters can pick and choose which were worth it-- that would be a different matter, but it isn't how it works. Note that I pointed out that the specific patented technologies often have negligible or even negative benefits.
Additionally, the companies pay the salaries of engineers and researchers who did the work. If your point is that engineers and researchers don’t get paid enough for the value they create, you’re talking about a completely distinct issue that has more to do with the structure of corporations generally.
Maybe people at the top get too much of the compensation, but what about the network technicians and IT departments that provided a functional work environment? What about building maintenance? What is harder, the research involved, or learning & navigating knowledge of the legal and financial mechanisms necessary for large complex organizations with a thousand interlinking pieces to other organizations? Who should get more compensation when the absence of any one component, not just the researchers, might have caused failure?
I want to be clear though: I'm not defending astronomical compensation of the very few at the top. I'm saying that if there's inequity here, it doesn't begin or end with the engineers and researchers. Its victims are the sum total of all the people, all of the functions, without which the system fails.
So there is light at the end of the tunnel
And out them, only Apple, and Qcom are hardware makers, and both have dropped the ball on AV1.
Qcom removed AV1 from latest snapdragon, and Apple haven't put it into M1 despite being one of first in the AV1 crowd.
The momentum is lost, and thus is the war. H265 is already a new de-facto standard by the virtue of it getting first to the hardware, while AV1 crowd was apparently arguing over whose logo design would AV1 bear, and exact legalese wording.
From what I can tell, they haven't had AV1 support in any chip yet. They said it didn't make the cut this time which probably means they just haven't finished and verified yet. Likewise, I'd guess Apples engineering efforts are more focused on upcoming, larger designs so they can finish moving off x86. Once those ship, they can refocus (plus it's another reason to upgrade your machine).
Rollout for most codecs is slow. I remember people saying no vp8/9 hardware decoders was deliberate too.
In truth, streaming companies want to save billions in data and licensing costs. Modern mobile SoCs can decode in software reasonably well, but with worse battery life. Netflix isn't paying for that, so they aren't incentivized to care past the most atrocious battery hogging behavior (it's not like you'll be streaming their exclusives from elsewhere). This leaves Qualcomm to implement it or get worse performance reviews.
They dont, the cost of transferring those bit are minimal. They are much more likely to be in the very low end of millions.
Internet Content Distribution Licensing are Zero from all known HEVC licenses.
Implantation of hardware codec takes time especially for VP8/9 and AV1 which tends to have changes after their so called finalised version 1. Not something I remember happening with H.26x
There are specific power budget requirement for hardware decoding in Mobile SoC. Unlike Desktop / Laptop GPU and iGPU where you can afford to have 2W to decode a video.
Especially considering AV1 is free, more efficient than x265, and pushed forward by powerful actors.
There’s so much engineering knowledge that has to be built up behind how to make these things fast in hardware since the overlap with other mpeg codes is smaller. There’s also a market timing issue. AV1 will be more battery intensive so the consumer demand for AV1 has to make sense (right now the content ecosystem isn’t there). That means Google and Netflix have to transcode their entire libraries. That doesn’t happen often and I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some investigation into how to do that more cheaply as the current encoders are unusably slow at the moment (ie they may need to put video encoder hardware in their clouds which I don’t think I’ve heard of these companies ever doing, making the undertaking even more expensive)
The reason H265 has momentum now is because it's been around for longer. AV1 already has a higher efficiency than H265.
The standard that is competing with AV1 is VVC or H.266. As it stands, AV1 has much more momentum than H.266.
That's what everyone said about Chrome and H.264, too. As it stands, Chrome has supported H.264 for over a decade.
Happily, Google's ability to simply declare new standards only goes so far.
Except they weren't. They just paid more money to be considered a "founding" members - assuming that's where you got the idea.
You seem to muse as though AV1 were on the same development track as H265 but delayed. This also doesn't reflect reality. It started well after and had a relatively quick turnaround (as far as codec development goes).
I guess rest of us, honest patent-abiding citizen and low profit buziness have to wait until the middle of 2030s to use H.265 safely.
Dropped the ball implies that they made a mistake. Are you sure it wasn't premeditated?
My point was that "drop the ball" means that they made a mistake. I don't think they did, it was intentional and I'd say even malicious.
Why do you think that this was not the case?
ARM is listed as a founding member, though.
Has Apple made any investment into AV1 at all? Meanwhile they actively use and deploy h.265 encoders/decoders & content.
>The public interest is that interoperability standards should not require patented technology at all to implement.
That is what EVC [1] Baseline Profile is. Basically bringing in all the tools from MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 / H.264 that have patnets expired or soon to be expired ( by the time finalised ). It is expected to be somewhat better than AVC High Profile but not as good as HEVC. ( Which I should remind everyone this claim seems too good to be true and requires 3rd party testing to verify )
It is interesting because a lot of the original purposed tools for H.264 were deemed far too complex for hardware at the time and were not accepted into the standard. Now 20 years later those tools are being put into good use.
Patents should not limit freedom, they should funnel some of the money made from the patented work back to the people who did the work. If money isn't involved the patent shouldn't come up. IE. if you aren't making money from a patent you should be free to use it as you want. To put it another way, we shouldn't put arbitrary restrictions on freedom in exchange for money.
But you’re absolutely correct. Something like H.264 which is used by practically everything shouldn’t cost money to just look at the standard.
[a]: I think it’s like a US$10k “membership fee” just to have the privilege of looking at the standard
It's annoying because multiple standards bodies all publish the same spec, which is why H.264 is also called "MPEG-4 Part 10" because the spec is part of the MPEG-4 spec published in ISO/IEC 14496 (part 10 for AVC). The ISO specs aren't free (a couple hundred USD for the AVC spec), which is the most annoying part.
You can get the H.263/H.264/H.265 specs for free form ITU, which covers a lot of the details you need for writing an encoder/decoder. Unfortunately sometimes you need the ISO specs for other things related to these codecs (e.g., ISO BMFF stuff).
(edit: I'm a dork and originally misread the comment as saying it was $10k for the H.264 spec, when parent meant the HDMI spec; I removed parts of my comment that were related to that misreading).
https://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/
Presumably this is because H.264 is public. Your complaint is well founded, though: if you've built an AVC codec using public documents you may be frustrated to learn that ISO/IEC 14496-14 (describing the MP4 file format) and ISO/IEC 14496-15 (describing the AVC elementary stream and how to encode it as an MP4) are not public.
It's also worth noting that ISO removes public standards. You may find references to public standards, like the link at https://ffmpeg.org/doxygen/2.7/webmdashenc_8c_source.html – but neither the linked ISO/IEC 23009-1:2014 nor any other version of the MPEG-DASH standard is available to the public at this time. Pay up!
IMHO the generally lax attitude towards IP is one of the reasons responsible for China's strong technological growth.
While I generally agree, it sounds a bit like "if you're successful, you're not allowed to earn money". It's a piece of work, still, and the creators should be allowed to earn money with it.
I'd personally prefer if all standards are free, since especially with an obscure one you're SOL when it's locked behind a paywall; with H.264, you can probably find a way around. But its hard to combine that with intellectual property. Limiting the patent timeframe to five or ten years might be a good middle ground.
No, it's "if you're successful by NORMALLY ILLEGAL COLLUSION, than the ways in which you're allowed to earn money may be restricted." That's what "encumbered standards" are at the end of the day, explicitly established horizontal monopolies. Those mathematics patents covering H.264 wouldn't be worth remotely the same if there were a hundred different video formats going around of which only 1 or 2 used them. Or if everyone had just stuck with MPEG-2. Of course, the world would also overall be worse off in those cases too, with an even higher risk of vertical monopolies, wasted hardware/bandwidth, etc. So it makes sense to have a middle ground, to allow "standards" to grow the total pie non-linearly larger than it would have been otherwise. But at the same time that needs to be combined with much more stringent controls to avoid all the normal obvious risks of monopolies.
Actors like Nokia and Qualcomm have been trying to have their cake and eat it too. They like the enormous monopoly lock-in value the standards give their patents, but then they also want to treat them like normal individual patents they can cut deals around. That's not how it should work. The reward for a Standards Essential Patent should be a reliable, fair fixed cut of a very, very big and dependable pie for the life of the patents/pool. Companies have the choice to go it alone if they'd like instead and not join the standard, which can then seek to work around them (or if that's impossible, disband and give up and at least not form any monopoly there). But if they have patents in a standard, they should face more restrictions due to the extra monopoly. It should be one or the other, not both.
The problem with patents and standards is that people are trying to charge for that value (the value of the network effects), and not the value of the technology. The big ideas of video compression are mostly more than 30 years old now, but the new patents are mostly on slight tweaks or additions (or things like header flags and other nonsense). No one would pay money for them except for the fact that they are part of the standard.
That’s the rub for me.
What does HDMI offer than SDI doesn't?
I can't think of any time I've ever used anything on a HDMI that uses power -- my HDMI to SDI converters (or vice versa) have separate power so it can't be very reliable and/or powerful
I guess EDID data can be useful in the computing space for feeding back from the monitor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discriminat...
The issue here is that Nokia allegedly has patents that are infringed by the standard, and didn't disclose them to the standards body.
Do we really want every standard to rely only on ideas that are so old that the patents have all expired? FRAND licensing seems like a far better solution.