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You must understand that America's goal is not to protect Americans' privacy. It is to protect its own monopoly on violations of Americans' privacy.

I think this falls into the trap of assuming the TikTok ban is part of an intelligible plan.

There are a lot of people in the Whitehouse who are looking for ways to pick a fight with China for their own reasons plus TikTok's young users were often mocking the President. I don't think there's much more to it than that.

Indeed. 2020 has never made https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor more relevant. People want to see conspiracies and patterns in everything. There's probably some truth to some of it, but I'd bet a lot of money most of it is just the result of people bumbling around and trying to cover their own asses.

It's a conspiracy that the U.S. government spies on its citizens via technology companies? And that there is a clear national security interest in preventing foreign adversaries from doing the same??

It's as if we learned absolutely nothing from Snowden.

No, I don't think it's pure conspiracy. Hence, "some truth". I do think that

> America's goal is not to protect Americans' privacy. It is to protect its own monopoly on violations of Americans' privacy.

Is a gross overstatement, though.

TikTok is the most successful China-owned app outside China. Blocking TikTok places a dent to the aspirations of Chinese companies to expand outside China.

Same with WeChat.

Let's assume that's true for a minute. Who does that benefit?

The wealthy in the US don't care, because they can and do invest in chinese tech companies.

The US government doesn't gain anything by banning TikTok. China can get most of the same data by scraping from other sources. I'm sure the US government can also get the data from Chinese companies if they want.

US tech competitors don't benefit from the TikTok ban because it shakes confidence in the laissez-faire attitude the US has had toward tech.

US citizens don't care because their interests are currently being represented by Facebook. I think I'd rather have China own my data than Facebook.

It all seems very confusing, until you recall that the TikTok ban happened because a bunch of kids organized on it to mess with the pre-registration for a Trump rally. https://www.stanforddaily.com/2020/08/03/tiktok-ban-trump-is...

There is no pro-US or pro-democracy policy making happening. This is really just trying to graft meaning onto the actions of a childish narcissist with a lot of power.

I agree there's no grand plan here, but from another perspective, the rise of TikTok/WeChat/DiDi/Alibaba (e.g. was surprised to see that I can use AliPay at CVS in my area in the US), shows that China doesn't need US companies and will go ahead with its own internet, it's own tech industry, etc. Also see initiatives like this: https://www.cnet.com/news/china-has-big-ideas-for-the-intern...

US influence in China will wane because the US can't really compete the way that US companies have done in other markets; hence, what can the US do but try to blunt/dent/hurt the growth of Chinese companies e.g. by interfering with TikTok (since we're not going to out-compete them or win out in the marketplace)? These are flea bites, not fatal blows, but it's all that the US can muster for now from a "policy" perspective. And keep in mind, the US may not have a grand strategy here, but China certainly does.

Or, to condense it into a thought experiment, think about what it would take in some alternate future timeline (which may not be so far-fetched), that would make it more likely for Alibaba to one day acquire Amazon, then for Amazon to acquire Alibaba... We may already be headed to that future.

Alipay is one the most interesting pieces of technology to come from China.

People in the West ridicule it, because they already have their own credit card systems.

But think about it. With just a picture of a QR code, anyone can transfer money to you, via their smartphone.

No more need for a fancy credit card swipe terminal. No more credit card insecurity. No need to use the credit card chip which often doesn’t work.

No more worrying that some company got hacked, and your credit card number is floating around out there, just waiting to be harvested, and your identity stolen.

Since it was you, that authorized the purchase with your smartphone. And you get immediate confirmation of the transaction.

The processing technology of Alipay got offloaded to your smartphone, and the internet, specifically 4G cellular technology.

And plus, the credit card companies, Visa and MasterCard, are just leaches anyways. They get to charge an insane 20% APR, which is far higher than mobsters can charge, and the credit card companies are legally allowed to do so. If the mafia was smart, then they should just start a credit card company, instead of breaking some poor schmuck’s arm for repayment.

Credit Card companies are the epitome of a debt trap. Once you get stuck, you forever fall into their quicksand, with fees, late fees, over draft fees, etc. And here is the screwed up thing: all of it is legal. It’s absurd that Congress allows these credit card companies to exist. Oh wait, who am I kidding. The bozos in Congress own stocks in these credit card companies, that’s why they allow this highway robbery to exist legally.

The fact that credit card companies charge 3%, just means that everything is 3% higher.

The cash spenders are subsidizing the credit card swipers. And the cash back rewards programs are a complete gimmick. Since you’re totally paying for the rewards itself just from the increased 3% fee on everything.

Anyways, the sooner that something else comes along to eliminate these dinosaur credit card companies, the better off the world will be. But who am I kidding? That’ll never happen.

It may have been just a cover for banning WeChat which is a more credible threat. Everybody is up in arms over TikTok and the media says nothing about WeChat so the plan seems to have worked.

haha, most of hn users really believe this is to protect Americans’ privacy

> some law that can be used to force TikTok and other companies to respect user privacy and store data safety. The US has basic no laws

What makes you think TikTok / China would abide by such a law, if there was one?

The law would really just be to get American/western companies all on the same ground with regards to data security. At least with that we can object to China's practices with a straight face and Western countries would have a united front.

In reality the CCP would be incapable of adhering to the law since it conflicts with their own laws about being able to review and monitor communications. But the difference is our objection would material and apply broadly rather than the case by case depending on the mood of the Executive branch.

If the law existed, the sale of Musical.ly would have never happened at least in the same manner. Most likely it would have been strong armed into Reddit/Tencent arrangement where it's only an exchange of capital & equity.

China doesn't and can't abide US law as a country.

TikTok, however, like every other private entity operating in the US does need to abide by laws for the protection it afforded under the law or should they face consequences.

No, I mean more like, if what the US Govt is alleging is true - that TikTok is siphoning data to Chinese military/security agencies (hence “national security threat”) that would definitely still be possible even if there were data protection laws - after all, the point of spying is that it’s generally illegal.

> TikTok is siphoning data to Chinese military/security agencies (hence “national security threat”) that would definitely still be possible even if there were data protection laws

Think it rationally, if there is any slight hint of that happening, you think Trump would not release it and amplify the claim 10x?...

Pretty much everywhere complies with the Magnitsky Act. It would also provide a legal process for action against third parties like the app stores.

Laws are only useful if they are enforced. If TikTok break said laws then action can be taken against them just like against anyone that breaks laws.

If there are no laws in place at all, what’s the punishment for.

You are forgetting one major point. You cannot equate the US and China. I can go on TikTok and make a video making a joke about the US president and nothing will happen to me. However if I am in China and make a TikTok video about Winnie The Pooh, I am going to end up in jail.

So yeah, it is not the same for CCP to have data on me or NSA.

If we've learned nothing else the last 4 years (last few decades really, but the last 4 years really hits home), it's that so much of what we take for granted about the US being supposedly safer or having a saner, more hands-off government is based far more on norms of behavior than actual legal protections for anyone, or legal guardrails that prevent whoever's in charge from abusing their power.

So you've got a point, but nowadays it's like you're comparing the risk of crossing a street blindfolded on a highway during the day vs. a 4-lane expressway in the middle of the night. One is a lot safer than the other but let's not pretend that either one is rational or advisable.

On the other hand, reporting on coronavirus in Florida can get you arrested. https://www.npr.org/2020/12/08/944200394/florida-agents-raid...

And of course there's HN favorite wikileaks...

> The search warrant was authorized as investigators tried to learn who sent a chat message to a planning group on an emergency alert platform, urging people to speak out publicly about Florida's coronavirus strategies.

> The message stated, "it's time to speak up before another 17,000 people are dead," according to member station WFSU, citing the probable cause affidavit.

> As the agents enter, one points their weapon upstairs. Jones says the agents pointed a gun at her and at her children.

It's hard to convince me that we're the "good guys" when we're pointing guns at children because their mother spoke out against the official government position.

I'm sure she'll get off without a conviction after draining her life's savings to defend herself. Hopefully it launches her career, if there's still a democracy left. At least they didn't execute her.

She wasn't arrested, but they seized her computers.

>However if I am in China and make a TikTok video about Winnie The Pooh, I am going to end up in jail.

you don't actually, people shitpost on the Chinese intranet like crazy. Some social media company might try to filter what you post but we're not in Mao's era.

Also it's kind of circular and meaningless to elevate the US above China simply by holding up American values. Someone in China could say the same, "hey look over there they can openly mock the president and spread conspiracies on the internet, they've turned into idiots, you can't equate China with the US!"

Tell that to Jack Ma.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/06/technology/china-ant-grou...

Look at the insane leverage in Ant's personal loan services.

Jack Ma is not punished because of his speech. His speech is a reflection of his perceived punishment of "innovation" which is really just a amplified version of the financial insanity already happened in US.

And Jack Ma actually can challenge the main stream rhetoric, can you say that 911 at least in part was a result of US foreign policy?

yeah if you're one of the richest people in China don't bait the CCP and financial regulators before doing the largest IPO in the nation. That's different from someone posting memes on the internet.

Well, you do have to give China’s financial regulators credit here.

Jack Ma’s Ant Financial was doing some really shady business practices.

Like keeping essentially 0% money on their books for collateral.

And they filed to go public, in 2 months. Which is incredibly fast, that nobody had the time to review what their business was all about.

And even when they got approval at the lower levels, the higher levels didn’t get to think it through yet. So they decided to pause Ant’s IPO at the last minute. With the requirement that they have 30% of the money held back as collateral.

The Ant business model had a serious possibility of destabilizing the entire financial system of China, and possibly the world.

Nobody really cared when Ant was private. Make all the money you want. But being a public company is a whole different ball game.

I think China dodged a bullet here. It’s better to be safe, than sorry.

"The Ant business model had a serious possibility of destabilizing the entire financial system of China, and possibly the world.

Nobody really cared when Ant was private. Make all the money you want. But being a public company is a whole different ball game."

Can you elaborate why its ok for a private company to destabilize the the entire financial system of China, and possibly the world? Why is it bad when its a public company?

To be honest I feel more comfortable with China having my data than the US. For one thing I’m a non citizen living in the US. I have no idea what data the US government has on me or how they’ll use it against me. We’ve also all seen the hostility the US has shown towards immigrants lately. Where as China has very limited ability to impact my life. Maybe US citizens has more protection than I do, but from what we’ve all seen last decade or so I wouldn’t feel very comfortable even if I was a citizen.

The same act is being committed regardless of whether it's TikTok or Facebook: collecting as much information on the general population as possible. If you can stop this from happening in the first place, it doesn't matter if the CCP or the Trump Administration or the Biden Administration or a future Putin administration want to use that information (ie. for political reasons), it won't exist on company servers for them to use.

The ban was a national security move. Psychological warfare is a well known military doctrine, if you want to see the sciences behind it, use the filetype:pdf tag on google with the terms psychoacoustics, psychographics, psychovisuals. They teach these techniques when going for marketing degree's and there are well documented studies on how the use of these techniques have ridiculosuly boosted profits e.g. supermarkets playing calm music and building their store like a maze to force customers to listen to calming music for a sufficiently long enough period of time to cause the autonomic and limbic nervous systems to relax thus increasing susceptability to other signals and triggers on packaging. This specific technique has been linked to a 30-50% increase in revenue.

There is a strong argument these adversaries have built domestic terrorist cells who have been running around in gangs threatening people, razing buildings, and engaging in nonsensical political discussions about disposing with government services, and they are using a social media company owned by a foreign state with stated military objectives to organize. Whether you want to view Antifa or Trump supporters as the terrorists, or TikTok, Twitter or Facebook as domesitic or foreign companies is a matter of perspective.

The fact is weapons of psychologcial warfare do not differentiate between targets and may yet proove to be as deadly as any WMD.

The reason Section 230 is under attack by the current regime is that astroturfing exercises on boards like this one to force perspective change and create sounding boards for corporate political policies has become a well documented business model as the recent deposition of FB and Twitter's CEO infront of congress showed.

The real insanity is that any CEO would ever think messing with people's brain chemistry without knowing what you are doing in order to make a buck was ever a good idea.

E2E solves none of the above.

Welcome to 2020.

I kinda feel that we forget the real reason of the whole mess. The Trump administration wants to shake down China, and they find all excuses to do so. The US is in an economic war with China.

> I'm a user not in the US or China, I don't want either the US or the CCP to be able to abuse/spy on me. But it's insane for US to claim the moral high ground when the legal barrier to the government using private data is literally just they have to pay a private company to do it [1].

Ah liberals, the undisputed champions of whataboutism.

I'm sorry that was uncalled for

I still haven't seen a compelling reason as to why I should care that the CCP has access to my TikTok data, provided they actually do. It's an entertainment app. Sure, I search for medical conditions and other bizarre things from time to time. I do the same on Netflix and Google, and hey, torrent sites too. Big deal.

The problem with data and storage is that it has an extremely long memory. I think these groups are nefarious and China having my data will never end in my favor.

Imagine my disdain for China is a crime and 10 years from now I go to Beijing for work and face prison. No thank you

The idea that tiktok is spaying is pure nonsense with very little evidence. What tiktok is collecting is not more than what Google or Facebook is collecting and that information is not more valuable to China. The Chinese government is less likely to harm you than your own government with that data.

The move to ban tiktok is a signal to US investors to not invest in Chinese tech companies which are making good progress. Sadly, this strategy may not work unless USA is able to bring the entire democratic world with them. I do not see that happening either.

> The idea that tiktok is spaying is pure nonsense with very little evidence. What tiktok is collecting is not more than what Google or Facebook is collecting and that information is not more valuable to China. The Chinese government is less likely to harm you than your own government with that data.

Then why was it caught spying on clipboard data? Remember the shenanigans that ensued just before this controversy blew up?

It was "caught" because that's the only one the consent manufacturers reported on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRSWdtoUAjo

Most of the apps in your home screen did it when the beta came out from NYTimes to Google News to Chrome to AccuWeather etc.

TikTok shows a pop-up preview of the TikTok link you have in your clipboard when you open TikTok. It might be that, it might be more. But it's certainly not more special than other apps.

But then it turns out it's a common practice used by a lot of social media apps. The argument isn't that TikTok doesn't collect data, it's that it's not doing anything different / special compared to the other accepted apps.

What TikTok does reveal is social trends and sentiment, this can easily be exploited by propaganda campaigns. Just knowing what’s trending without Twitter’s firehouse is extremely valuable. Akin to a trojan horse.

>The Chinese government is less likely to harm you than your own government with that data.

Why are you so sure of that? The CCP has whole military divisions dedicated to pinging every server on the planet for any possibility on getting access to them.