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Comment by AndrewKemendo | Hacker News Reader

I'd love to hear from people who want to stay in the Bay area what is unique that you cannot find elsewhere in cheaper locales.

I lived in Mountain View for 3 months during 500 startups and the valley proper was the most garden variety suburban existence you could find anywhere.

I lived in SF proper off and on and can attest that it certainly has (had?) fantastic restaurants/shops and a particular type of culture that many people love. However the basic infrastructure and problems with SF are well known and have been documented.

I can't see at this point how the former plusses of SF outweigh the latter negatives and frankly I see no inherent plusses to the Valley.

It seems that people (technologists mostly) literally only value the valley because of technology companies and even more pointedly - because that's where the big VC money lives.

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I'm in SF. I think I'll stay for a while longer bc:

- I enjoy not needing a car. Many neighborhoods are walkable.

- I appreciate the mild weather. E.g. I lived in NYC, and though I did not need a car, humid summers and snowy winters made it less pleasant to be outside.

- It's dense but not _too_ dense. NYC felt legitimately claustrophobic sometimes.

- It's still an LGBT mecca. Prior to the pandemic, I could be in queer spaces on a daily basis.

I don't know that I'll be in SF forever. But when I think of moving, I wonder where I would go, and what my life would look like when I get there. I grew up in suburbs and still associate those neighborhoods with isolation. Among US cities, it's hard to meet all of these.

1) SF & Valley: Education levels of the people here. You can get that in a couple other places--DC, NYC, Boston--but not too many others. Relatedly, two easily accessible world class universities are in the Bay Area: Boston beats us here, but we beat NYC and DC.

2) SF & Valley: Diversity. Bay Area cities top the list of largest number of foreign born residents, with only LA and NYC being competitive.

3) SF & Valley: Weather. LA beats us here, but SF trounces NYC, Boston, DC, and Seattle.

4) Just SF: Walkability and street life. SF is more walkable than most cities (the weather helps with that), and although it has shitty public transit options, it's only shitty in comparison to places with actual good public transit, which more or less don't exist in the US.

5) Just SF: Weirdness. Okay, SF has driven out most of the interesting weirdo and artistic crowds and replaced them with CrossFitting Burners. But there are still remnants of that culture, more so than most places except perhaps NYC.

6) SF & Valley: Food. It's mediocre in comparison to the scenes in LA and NYC. But it's still worlds better than the rest of the country.

7) SF: Arts. Similar to food, it's mediocre compared to LA and NYC. But it's still worlds better than the rest of the country.

8) SF & Valley: Nature. West Coast cities are all competitive here, as is Denver/Boulder (though even they lack the beaches), but this is another place where East Coast cities fall short.

In the end, the only plausibly competitive cities on this scoring matrix are LA and NYC. LA sacrifices a lot of the walkability and weirdness of SF. NYC sacrifices the weather, and moving to NYC from SF isn't going to get you of any the much vaunted coupon-cutting decrease in cost of living that everyone in these comments is so pumped about.

Just to be fair, I'll also list disadvantages of SF:

1) Cost of living. "No one is willing to pay that much to live in SF, it's too expensive."

2) Dating scene for men.

3) Travel. Subjective, but East Coast cities are better situated for international travel than the West Coast.

4) Cleanliness. Yep, SF is an unhygienic shithole in many places.

5) Monoculture. Too many tech folks here, not enough diversity in industry.

I have lived in both SF and DC and think a few of your points are maybe a bit unfair to the east coast. I found DC's public transit and walkability to be quite a bit better than SF. True, the weather is less perfect, and maybe I am resistant to humidity and mild cold, but I generally found it pleasant to be outside for 9 months of the year. DC absolutely had a lot of diversity, partially due to immigration, but also because the government pulls in people from all countries and all walks of life. It is really the opposite of a monoculture since there is really a bit of everything under the sun there. The Smithsonian is a worldwide magnet for art and culture. You also trade SF's weirdness for one of the most historically interesting places in the country.

On the nature front, there are really a lot of great public lands on the east coast. They are a bit less iconic than what you can find on the west coast, but you can still hike, camp, climb, ski and beach to your heart's content.

I think comparing SF to DC and Boston makes the most sense just due to similar size. LA and NYC are in a class of their own.

I've spent probably a month total in DC, so I don't fully know its charms. And it's certainly a city that I get the appeal of, and I wouldn't be opposed to moving there if circumstances brought me there. But some thoughts:

Walkability: for pros, DC is flatter and cleaner. The Metro is cleaner and more reliable than Muni. For cons, the city itself is a bit more spread out, and its hinterlands (e.g. Tysons or Silver Spring), although accessible via public transit, are much less walkable than San Francisco's hinterlands (e.g. Berkeley or Palo Alto). But the biggest issue is that D.C. is just not really walkable in either the depths of winter or the heights of summer (although evenings can be pretty pleasant, and you can actually enjoy an evening out on a patio). Maybe I'm a wimp with low tolerances, but that's six months of the year gone right there.

Diversity: SF is around 1/3 foreign born, while DC is like 1/6 or 1/8. Almost half of SF speaks a language other than English at home, while DC is more like a quarter. DC is diverse, just not as diverse as SF.

I agree with the rest of what you said.

On the diversity angle, foreign-born is not the only metric. DC proper is about 45% Black which is an important part of its history and identity as a city. DC almost never gets snow so the "depths of winter" is a relative term. I walked and biked 365 days a year and so did most of my co-workers. It was common to not own a car, especially for younger people. In the hotter summer months I adapted by wearing lighter clothes or shoes for my commute and changing at work. I also kept a change of clothes at work in the event of a downpour, which was rare anyway. Everyone else deals with the same thing, so it's not weird to pop into the bathroom to change from shorts to pants on a hot day. Outdoor dining does shut down for a few of the colder months, but then when the first tables go outside again it can be a thrill. I get that the bay area weather is practically perfect every day; maybe I just don't require perfection.

Metro absolutely does not serve many areas. It's a far cry from NYC or European cities, but was totally workable as long as you stuck to the city and certain suburbs.

Agree with all points except "Dating scene for men"

As somebody who has lived on three continents in major metro area's as well as countryside IMO SFBA has the best dating scene.

I am married now, so I have been out of the single pool for a couple years...but before that I will say that SFBA had the most attractive pool of available woman in the world, if intelligence, creativity, independence, being self starters and physical attractiveness is what you value.

I sure found the love of my life here.

I agree that the SFBA has a very attractive pool of women, I just question whether they're available =) I've lived in a similar variety of metro areas as you, in North America, Europe, and Asia. San Francisco ranks dead last. Pretty much any guy can improve his dating outcomes by moving from SF to NYC, no matter what his standards are and what he's looking for, mostly because you can actually get regular dates with the accomplished, independent women there.

I have one friend who lived at a base in Antarctica for awhile, and he favorably compared the dating scene there to what's in SF.

There is likely a lot of factors at play

But personally I had no game with woman in NYC or LA....in part because what each party wanted from a partner was incompatible.

My friends who don't want to leave SV are mostly singles and couples without kids who don't mind living in apartments for rest of their lives. They move to a new apartment/condo every 2-3 years and don't care about schools, community, public transport etc. Another set of friends were lucky enough to be able to purchase million and half dollar homes in Fremont/South San Jose/Milpitas/Campbell and now that they have friends and their kids have friends, they are "settled" and don't mind paying ridiculous mortgage for next 20ish years. They do complaint about having to wfh home from their garage since all rooms in their home are occupied with kids at home. My friends in SFBA who claim that there are many jobs opportunities in tech companies have not changed their jobs in ~5 years.

For me (in SF): climate that matches what I want perfectly. The option for snow or beaches on the same day. The food, the diversity, the grittiness, the jobs, the history. And all my family lives here, too. The biggest one of all: walkability, never having to get in my car unless I want to leave the city.

Where did you end up moving that you found a better fit for yourself?

Northern Virginia about an Hour from DC.

The only two things you miss in VA on your list is "grittiness" which is a negative for me, and walkability, which you could get if you go closer to DC.

Same as @AndrewKemendo I re-lo'd to Northern Virginia just outside DC, 3yrs ago in my case. This is my 3rd tour in DC/Va. It has been a fantastic three years, especially w/r/t life, friends, family, society. I bike to work, and every day has been wonderful.

That said -- and I hear pushback on this from other threads -- my job opportunities here for any senior level roles are next to nil. This could be because I do not have a security clearance (a local favorite), or it could be because the job pyramid here in DC/NoVa really is differently shaped than SF/SV, or it could be that i'm an outsider w/o a deep social network, or perhaps I'm not looking at the area correctly.

As an anecdote, I get tons of Linked In messages for opportunities in California. CTO positions, VP positions at venture backed growth startups, all across the board. I get almost no in-bounds from companies in DC except for consulting firms (been there, done that when i was 20-25, not sure if that is a good fit at my current stage in life.)

I'm sure part of it is my profile. I have lots of real-time systems, model, quant, Computer Vision, and tech leadership background. I'm just not sure how much of a market there is for that -- though I'm positive having a security clearance would change things dramatically.

This presents a serious concern for me, and a balancing act for continued happiness in DC/VA.

And the family, which is maybe the biggest draw for many of us.

The more I think about it, the more I realize the choice of where you live is barely rational, if at all. Sure we come up with reason about why we are where we are post hoc, but are those the real reasons?

I can almost guarantee I will never move to DC or Virginia. Not because it isn't an amazing place with everything you can want, but because it's just not me for some reason that's hard to articulate. I would guess you would almost guarantee you'd never move to CA, too.

Yeah I think that nails it - in the sense that we both are right.

SF/Bay Area is "Good enough" for your needs and VA is "Good enough" for mine and it's not some optimized process, moreso an artifact of our relative histories.

Climate is also missing, which is huge. VA has hot humid summers and freezing cold winters. SF spring/fall all year round.

As opposed to SF which has hot humid winters and freezing cold summers /s

Not sure SF's climate can be considered universally better. I think I would get sick of it never actually getting warm.

I have a wife and young child and plan to stay long term. Both my wife and I work in tech, and are not fans of remote work. So for both of us this is the best place career-wise. We own a modest house, with a nice yard, so no complaints there. We love the food, nature, weather, and theatre scene. We're in San Mateo, walking distance from downtown, which means we have access to some of the best ramen outside of Japan.

To be perfectly honest, the only thing missing is our friends and family in Canada. It wasn't so bad when we could visit 2-3 times a year, but the pandemic has put a stop to that.

What's your favourite ramen restaurants? My wife is Japanese and she hasn't found anything that rivals Japan yet.

My top picks are Ramen Parlor or Ramen Dojo.

If I could, I'd leave tomorrow, but, besides tech, there is another unique aspect of Bay Area: the Biotech scene.

My wife works in Biotech and the only other alternative for us would be the Boston area. But, after running some numbers pro/cons, the Bay Area wins.

So we are stuck here ... for now.

Depends - Boston can be cheaper if you don't have a big commute and the public transportation can help. Source: I've lived in both.

Yeah I looked into home prices rent/buy. True that you can find something _cheaper_ but not cheap/good enough to justify the lower salary and less tech opportunities. I came to the conclusion that Boston is just as expensive as SF but with less opportunities.

Philly is supposed to have an _ok_ biotech scene, so I hear.

You can work in biotech in any city on the west coast

I live in the Oakland hills. The access to SF via Bart in 30 minutes and the access to completely open space to go running, hiking, biking, etc. is pretty unusual. Look up the EBMUD land east of Oakland for a reference. It's unbelievably large. This connection between nature and city is really unusual.

Every city is special in its own way. Very few cities have anything truly irreplaceable, but it's a combination of small differences that make a city special.

My two favorite cities in the US are San Francisco and Philadelphia. Many people hate those places with a passion. To each their own!

Would you mind expanding on what parts you like about Philly and why? I’ve been thinking about moving there but don’t see it mentioned favorably too often.

Sure! Some things that come to mind in no order:

* Food - an incredible an ever-changing restaurant scene, from cheesesteaks to 10-course tasting menus. And all much more affordable than fine dining in most US cities, plus free BYOB is extremely common. * Music / Sports - incredible music scene with major and minor venues of all kinds, and a professional sports team in all 4 major leagues with a passionate fanbase. * Size - neither a very large city (NYC) nor a very small city (Boston). Easy to get around, narrow streets make it very walkable. * Attitude - Philly people are just different. I'd describe it as a "warm hostility" :) but you'll find Philadelphians are very welcoming while also being brutally honest. * Diversity - there is no racial majority in Philly. It's about 40% white, 40% black, and 20% other. * Price - Philly is cheap!

I grew up in the Southeast and went to college there. I've since lived in Palo Alto and SF, and I'm staying in SF for the long haul. There aren't many things that are truly unique to any one city or region, but the reasons why I loved Palo Alto and currently love SF include: 1. the intelligent, interesting, generally well-mannered, and equally laid-back and hardworking people. 2. the weather (heat and humidity are hell to me) - I'm a runner and a cyclist and I love being able to do those things every day of the year in comfort. 3. beautiful nature in my backyard - Golden Gate Park, the Presidio, Mt. Tam, the Berkeley hills, Ocean Beach, day trips to Sonoma, weekend trips to Tahoe, weekend trips to Big Sur, proximity to Yosemite. 4. the walkability of my neighborhood (I live in a nice neighborhood with clean streets and rarely encounter any homelessness - I've still never actually seen a needle anywhere). My favorite sushi restaurant is one block away, 5 craft coffee shops within 3 blocks, Whole Foods within walking distance, multiple restaurants (all of these I have in mind are still open). 5. Biden/Harris flags and bumper stickers everywhere - maybe I enjoy an echo chamber but after spending considerable time in the Southeast, I love being in a solid blue city.

I'm tied to Stanford (by marriage), so we won't be leaving for decades. If it weren't for the university connection, I would certainly be thinking about different options, even though all of our family is in northern California.

My wife's family is here. If not for that we would be in literally any other part of the country now, enjoying a decent-sized house with a yard.

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