But, as a European, I must say that the strong focus on masks on the other side of the Atlantic feels a little dangerous; over here the regions with a mask mandate have not fared significantly better than those without.
So here is the more complete CDC advice: "Wear a mask, stay at least 6 feet apart, avoid crowds, and wash your hands often."
It is unbelievable that this list of behaviors does not include airing out or ventilating indoor public spaces.
Here in sunny California, where the weather in the Bay Area has been mild and warm through December 3, I find myself walking into shops or offices every day that have operable windows and doors: all shut tight.
Many of these spaces could be indistinguishable from the outdoors in terms of fresh air flow. For reasons I cannot fathom this simplest (and healthiest) mitigation is not practiced.
* Offering live streaming.
* Reducing capacity for services to one-quarter capacity and having our ushers enforce 6-foot (4 seats) separation between family groups.
* Constant "wear a mask, please" signs and reminders.
* Reducing childcare room capacity to 6 children and 2 adults per room.
* Opening every window and door possible.
* Keeping the ventilation system running to circulate air.
Our city fire marshal recently threatened us with fines for keeping the interior doors open to improve ventilation.
"The restaurant owner filmed a city inspector issuing a citation due to the cafe’s open front door"
https://ny.eater.com/2020/10/21/21526832/gravesend-restauran...
We have many laws about fire safety, not so many about COVID-19.
Could that be because people in regions without a mask mandate wear masks anyway?
You do not really need a mask if you are out for a walk and are maintaining social distancing. It has been proven time and time again that the main culprit is people crowding indoors without masks.
If you are downvoting, please provide evidence that wearing a mask outside while maintaining social distancing has any substantial effect.
I wear a mask outside while walking and social distancing and I'm not virtue signaling. I simply personally find it harder to futz w/ a mask when coming up on people or going inside a building.
Please be a little less reflexive when it comes to this stuff. I'm sure people are "virtue signaling" by wearing masks. But coincidentally they're also limiting the spread of COVID-19. Let's focus on the latter here.
It really seems like you're just reflexively jumping on this stuff. Mask wearing is good! Even if you're not social distancing it's better than not wearing a mask and not social distancing.
It's also worth saying there's nothing wrong with "virtue signaling". It's indistinguishable from... actually having the virtue.
Wear the damn mask, and wear it properly. This tells the world that you get it, that you take it seriously, and that you're probably doing all the other trivial but necessary things also.
Yes, it's slightly inconvenient. But generally no more so for you than for everyone else. So get over it.
Also, use your turn signal, even if there are no other cars within 100 meters of you.
Also, don't leave your shopping cart in the middle of the grocery aisle while deciding which product to select, even if no one else is presently trying to get past you.
Do all the simple things that signal "it makes more sense to be courteous and clear, than to demonstrate disregard for others (whether purposeful or oblivious, because they are often hard to tell apart)".
When I'm walking early in the morning, I carry a mask with me in case I encounter other morning joggers/walkers and can't easily cross the street at the time.
I would love to see confirmed cases of transmission from merely walking by someone when outside.
I seriously don’t get the pull up the mask thing when I walk by someone outside. I’m not going to do it and I have zero expectation the other person do that either.
No, that's not correct at all. But if I may take a guess at what you meant to write..
Those are guidelines based on estimated inflection points where more time or less distance increases the likelihood of transmission.
They are presumed to be good-faith estimates, but they are based on difficult-to-collect data. It's probably reasonable to draw the conclusion that, if fully observed, the guidelines would drive R0 below 1.0 and the trendline would follow.
But that doesn't mean that no transmission occurs in other situations. People sometimes sneeze unexpectedly. It takes a fraction of a second to put on the mask that prevents that event from becoming risky, or at least uncomfortable. Cheap insurance.
It's also important to realize that "walking by someone while outside" can take many forms, so it's not clear that we're all talking about the same thing. Jogging on a narrow path is very different from strolling on a beach.
Different measures are appropriate for different cases, but it's never harmful to use the mask, it's a reasonable habit to get into, and it makes people around you more comfortable. What's the trouble?
So I guess it’s 15 minutes of cumulative exposure over the course of 24 hours.
Indoors, sure wear a mask. I wear a mask where required indoors. But outdoors no thanks.
What’s the trouble? A behavior devoid of reason is nothing more than a ritual. Furthermore, it sets the expectation that the behavior does actually provide tangible benefit leading to a false sense of security and lead to riskier behaviors than what would have otherwise occurred. Finally, masks are not created equal. How do I know the mask “you” are wearing is actually worth a damn?
https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2020/10/26/cdc-re...
Absolutely. But we're not in "devoid of reason" territory here, we're in "with complex and sometimes impossible to quantify reasons" territory.
So here are two people:
- Person A is an epidemiologist-statistician who has run the numbers rigorously for his part of his county, factored in the likelihood of inter-county travel, and concluded that there's no benefit for any party to be wearing a mask in the specific situation they expected to be in when they left the house this morning, and that that situation is perfectly aligned with the reality of the day.
- Person B is an average underinformed conspiracy theorist who thinks COVID is all a scam perpetrated by the medical establishment for more funding and to undermine Dear Leader and that it would go away like magic in the summer, no the fall, no the winter if only the media would stop talking about it and 5G.
How can you (random sidewalk passerby) tell the difference between these two people?
I wear a mask, no matter how smart I'm feeling that day.
(Note that this is not a response to why one should wear a mask, just a light observation of a positive side effect! But there is value in signalling, even if it's just to normalize the behavior so that the reluctant just stop bothering to protest about such a simple thing, and thereby get a jump on any asymptomatic spread that occurs semi-randomly in populations.. :)
I logged my thoughts here https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1335634895826087938.html
0. https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1334641685154902021 links to https://jkms.org/DOIx.php?id=10.3346/jkms.2020.35.e415
Here's the conclusion from the study that was linked: "Droplet transmission can occur at a distance greater than 2 m if there is direct air flow from an infected person. Therefore, updated guidelines involving prevention, contact tracing, and quarantine for COVID-19 are required for control of this highly contagious disease."
Walking by someone is an interaction measured in seconds. If that person is infected and shedding via aerosol then a plain cloth mask does not offer much protection. The cloth mask would offer some level of protection if the infected was shedding via droplets from sneeze/cough/etc.
If there's direct evidence that wearing a mask on my walk around the neighborhood offers significant benefits then I will reconsider. To this point, I just haven't seen anything that supports this behavior.
CDC guidelines are about likelihood of transmission, not certainty.
It's considerate and respectful to wear a mask when around other people. If you're not going to do it, then all I ask is that you stay far away from me and mine.
Because that’s ultimately what this 24/7 mask wearing is about - demanding others engage in specific behaviors to make yourself feel better.
I view this as personal responsibility and that’s how I conduct myself. I should draw boundaries for myself with what is and what is not okay and operate accordingly. I don’t expect anyone to change their life to account for my insecurities.
If I see a person wearing a mask, even one of those single-ply gaiters that seems to be much less effective than three-ply cotton masks, I still understand that they are not one of the radical science-denying people that make zero effort to avoid infecting themselves and others, and are therefore dangerous.
Personal responsibility sounds great, and is a good start. But also, we live in a society, so personal responsibility includes doing what you can to avoid spreading COVID-19 to others.
Epidemiology is not "insecurity." That's... wow, I'm not even sure how to respond to that.
If you can allow for that possibility, at low or zero up-front cost, then -- I don't know, maybe it's the adulthood speaking here, but -- why would one not do so? :)
But if those people are going to be stupid in private, then I still want them to do all the CDC-recommended stuff in the places where we cross paths.
If we could isolate those folks in their bars and churches and let them burn themselves out, I'd be OK with that.
But they are in the grocery store the next day, wearing a mask around their chin because they care equally little in public as they do in private.
So, if you are not one of those people, signal it by wearing the mask properly.
("you" in all of the foregoing is directed generally, not personally!)
If they aren't doing the bare minimum, that I can see with my own eyes, I have no reason to believe they are also social distancing.
It's also an interesting illustration of why things like virtue signaling are a sociological phenomenon to begin with. They're hard-wired into us, for good reasons.
And no, wearing a mask outside is not automatically "virtue signaling".
People should just shut up and wear a mask. (And social distance. And wash their hands. And refrain from touching their face. And, and, and)
If there's even a 0.000001% chance that you could prevent the spread of a rampantly spreading disease that has hospitals in many regions at or above capacity, by putting a damn piece of cloth over your face, then just do it. It's not burdensome.
I think about past generations in the US that had to sacrifice mightily in the great depression or WWII, and then I look at today and how many people are whining over petty nonsense like this, and I shudder at what the country has become.
For me, it has a convenient counter response: nobody using the term "virtue signaling" has anything useful to say, on any topic. It's "vice signaling", their call-out to their buddies that they, too, don't like anything you say solely because you say it. They're not listening to me, except for the purpose of rejecting it reflexively, so there's no point in talking to them.
edit - If you need to take a walk through downtown Los Angeles or somewhere where it is physically impossible to social distance, then yes wear a mask.
As an avid bicyclist I do not wear a mask on long distance solo bike rides, and I get harsh or worried looks from seniors. However, I understand the details and am not exposing myself or others.
A major challenge in public health messaging is the intractable problem of lack of context and lack of intellectual effort by all parties. Mix in serious consequences and you have a recipe for conflict quickly.
So "virtue signalling" is a one liner, my post is a one liner (almost) and, public health officials face millions of inconvenienced, ill or panic'd people with their "one liner"
Please wash hands, be mindful of others, take it seriously and no, I do not wear a mask on my long distance solo bike rides.
What bothers me more is not having clear rules/instructions. So I just resort to wearing the mask everywhere, doesn't hurt me or bother me and shouldn't be controversial.
The glasses thing is actually a pretty critical issue. I've seen people wearing masks and glasses by themselves in cars while driving with the windows closed. In that scenario fogging glasses makes wearing the mask more dangerous to people around you than not wearing the mask...
Of course, none of this is to say that in all these cases, even outdoors, that you shouldn't wear the mask if you can't social distance or need to go indoors. You totally should! But giving people the stink eye when they're 30 ft away from everyone else and outside and mask-less seems a bit much. It doesn't seem like there's any justification for that outside of shaming non-conformity.
Other commenters here are saying things like - if there's a .0001% chance this pre ents harm to you or others, then it's your duty to not do it. I'm a teetotaler; I wonder if these folks drink alcohol.
I've rarely eaten at an outdoor restaurant since March, I haven't eaten indoors at all, and have been generally minimizing trips to stores so I'm conservative. But I'm not going to do something just to send a signal that I'm a "good" person.
You don't need to shame people who have an overabundance of precaution.
From flat out denying, to "we have to quarantine, no Thanksgiving!" from mayors who are then caught at fancy dinners and restaurants! Hard to sell the "we're in this together" narrative when you think the rules don't apply to you if you're rich...it's sad.
The problem is a highly transmissible, deadly virus, and people reacting to it relative to how others act, regardless of wealth or political affiliation.
It's unproductive and distracting to focus on a few people, even if they are leaders, making poor personal decisions in a crisis. It is not about them, it's about sars-covid-19 and the thousands of people dying from it every day, and the hundreds of thousands that will die if we don't get our collective act together.
The virus is clearly the problem but it isn't solvable until a vaccine comes which takes time - in the meantime you have to enter the realm of sociology. Messaging matters.
One moron in Austin doing something has zero bearing on the pathology of this disease. I wish they were not hypocrites, but looking more broadly, a mayor or councilperson isn't the problem in the large scale response to this epidemic.
Message matters, and saying "why do I have to do something smart if at least one person in a person of power is doing something dumb" is itself a message, and not a productive one.
concretely: hypocrites will exist for any principle or situation imaginable, so you can take it as a given, reason about a situation independently of them, and ignore them.
EXACTLY. That is the message being sent - it's unproductive! That is my exact point. Our leadership sends unproductive messages all the time -and when half the country doesn't think it's a big deal, they see rich people doing whatever, their confirmation bias kicks in and says "see if it was bad they wouldn't be doing X"
> concretely: hypocrites will exist for any principle or situation imaginable, so you can take it as a given, reason about a situation independently of them, and ignore them.
You can't ignore hypocrites if they have influence. If Trump was pro-mask a good deal of this country would have been too.
Leadership needs to lead or the message is undermined. What do we want? To stop covid or to fight a culture war?
people should take a bit more responsibility for their own safety. We aren’t all children to be told every single common thing to follow. Especially after quarter million deaths!!!
https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Gavin-Newsom-birthda...
[0]: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/S-...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8289921/Scientist-a...
If we are following the science, you should be fine to not wear a mask due to immunity, right?
Should these people also be allowed to live a normal life, gathering with others indoors, etc? I’ve never heard people giving the previously infected a pass to return to normal. I think everyone thinks it’s only fair to make them continue to suffer too, despite having immunity and ignoring the actual reason for social distancing and mask wearing.
1: https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2020/11/11/covid-...
Yes people may break the laws or not follow the rules, that doesn’t mean there is no value. There’s surely a black market for passports, ids, etc, does that mean those documents are useless?
There are two concerns related to post-immunity spread: First, the accuracy of tests, and second, the ability to spread despite immunity.
I believe that some studies have shown you may still be able to transmit the disease if exposed, even though you yourself are immune.
I don't have sources handy, but that is a starting point for your own research.
As to your second point, would you also be saying we should still mask and social distance after vaccination, because just in case?
Genuinely asking - even with the message "we're all in this together", does it surprise you that others don't see it this way?
I'm also curious how (or if) we're going to learn to collectively solve some of these long-term problems before many of them really start to turn into those specific, concrete, short-term threats to us as individuals, at which point many of the "easier" solutions may no longer be effective anymore.
That being, said has the working group made any update to their predictions / statements.
Where can I find research that confirms masks work?
"The authors of this article, published in 2015, have written a response to their work in light of the COVID-19 pandemic. We urge our readers to consider the response when reading the article. https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577.responses#covid-..."
Would not standard practice be to wear proper masks?
Yes, here we go: "some subjects in the control arm wore surgical masks." And indeed, someone comments "The control arm had less than 1% of no mask use".
Surgical masks are widely available and not solely for healthcare workers.
But even with the confirmed cases the trend in Japan is worrying, especially compared to other countries in Asia. They're setting new records every day: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20201201_36/
With that said, I absolutely think the mask culture in Japan has dampened the surge a lot. In countries without this people just do the bare minimum to be compliant, so we have all these chin-wearers and nose-flashers. We're simply hopeless at wearing masks even with the strictest of mask mandates. So even if masks could reduce the spread significantly we're not likely to see the effect of that here.
Which is only sorta true in the sense that people who are sick often wear them and they're not almost unheard of like in the West. But pre-pandemic, go out on a crowded street in Tokyo and you probably wouldn't see more than a few masks if you saw any.