Hacker News Reader

Comment by oftenwrong | Hacker News Reader

The flat design would seem to make this even less ergonomic than a laptop (an already low bar). Is this meant to be placed on a desk? The user would basically have to hang their head down to look at the display, which is just in front of their fingers. There is no possible way to maintain a healthy posture without an external display.

Otherwise, the retro hardware aesthetic is cool. Reminds me a bit of the early briefcase-format portable computers. I can't think of any actual use I would have for a thermal printer, but I like the idea of it.

View on HN

I think it's meant to be reminiscent of the TRS 80 100. Even so, I agree: being entirely flat will cause many stiff necks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS-80_Model_100

Or the older Epson HX-20, considering the built-in printer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epson_HX-20

My thought exactly. I had great fun with my HX-20. That and a Tandy/Sharp Pocket Computer were my first programming experiences as a young child; I spent hours programming both.

Yeah we had a tandy 102 that was my dad's and that was the first thing I thought when I looked at it. It was a fun little computer my son used to write basic programs on it.

Also mind the various siblings of the TRS-80 Model 100, the NEC PC-8201(A), the Olivetti M-10, and the Kyotronic 85, which share the same basic design (by Kyocera).

https://www.masswerk.at/rc2016/01/01.html

Funnily enough, the Model 100 I bought at an electronics surplus store had two plastic rods with rubber feet included. You could push them into the screw wells on the back so that the Model 100 was angled like a desktop keyboard.

This kind of form factor is called a cyberdeck, and is inspired by cyberpunk fiction and roleplaying games. Most of the community has now converged on screens that tilt up for practicality's sake, but the flat ones do have a retro charm.

inspired by cyberpunk fiction and roleplaying games

It's a near copy of the TRS-80 Model 100. It's so close that the people behind this project have been flogging it on TRS-80 mailing lists and other fora.

I wonder, how can I find mailing lists that align with my interests? I am not interested in TRS-80, but I wonder if there are mailing lists for other topics that I am interested in

I find it hard to buy into this popular notion that the head isn't designed to look downwards: People have been reading books like this for thousands of years.

This version of ergonomics that implies "your neck is going to snap off if you look down" is suspect to me.

It's not a matter of design. We can look downwards and work in many positions, yes. However, is it healthy to work this way on a regular basis? I doubt it, but I am open to seeing evidence. I know that for me, it is not a good position; it will cause me back, neck and shoulder pain, and headaches if I work that way.

Anecdotally, I know many avid readers that have developed forward head posture and various pains from their habit.

I'm not sure people have been reading books flat on a desk or in their lap for thousands of years. After all, literacy was not widespread until relatively recent times. Furthermore, many scholar of the past would read and write on an erect, angled surface when possible: https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/medieval-world/mediev... . Personally, I prefer to do the same when reading for any extended period of time.

We’ve been looking straight ahead and hunting things for much longer than we’ve been reading books. Looking straight down is definitely poor ergonomics.

It seems like a person would have to look down if they are making a flint tool from a rock, or when they are butchering a kill, or when they are gathering berries.

It is well understood that sitting in chairs is a very weird and unnatural thing for the human body. You’re not comparing like things here.

> People have been reading books like this for thousands of years

This does not make it healthy.

Besides, it's wrong: very few people had access to books for "thousands of years" and almost always they were kept on a reading stand, both due to the weight and to keep them safe and clean.

A simple google image search for "reading book" shows that people read at different angles, from in front of the face, to 45 degrees and indeed straight down on the table, or in the lap.

But unlike with this, we can easily shift position and angle with our books.

Ever heard of nerd neck?

The display is 6.5", so this is about the footprint of an iPad Mini. That, and considering it has gamepad buttons in the upperleft and upperright corners of the keyboard, I supsect you're expected to hand-hold it.

> I can't think of any actual use I would have for a thermal printer, but I like the idea of it.

Is that beige thing labelled Expansion Port a thermal printer? That's what it looked like to me but I couldn't find it identified as such anywhere.

I like the idea, too. I also suspect like you it would turn out to be completely useless. But I can also imagine you might find one or two use cases that turn it into a killer feature and totally validate the entire device.

Search the linked page for the words "thermal printer" and ye shall find

I think this quote from the page sums it up best:

>DevTerm is a post-modern, digital minimalist lifestyle.

It's more about signaling to others that you embody the "hacker lifestyle" than anything else. Looks cool, your friends will ooh and ahh over it, but probably won't get much use outside of that due to the ergonomics.

Yep, price doesn't justify the purchase, but for the "hipster-tax". This is basically a eg-booster.

>> DevTerm is a post-modern, digital minimalist lifestyle.

> It's more about signaling to others that you embody the "hacker lifestyle" than anything else.

The minimalist lifestyle would be repurposing an old device, not buying an extra one.

My laptop screen bends 180 degrees fully flat on the desk, I use this configuration with an external monitor but no external keyboard. Maybe that's how you would use this system most of the time, just plug an external monitor and ignore the built-in one.

> There is no possible way to maintain a healthy posture without an external display.

I know a physical therapist who would strongly disagree with this; in fact he explicitly recommends to use a laptop for ergonomic reasons unless you can achieve a proper, ergonomic setup with an external screen. The reason being that if used properly(laptop far back so you can rest the whole forearms and elbows on the table) the angles and positioning are supposed to be pretty good.

I'm not an expert in this area myself, but some of my problems were alleviated by following his advice and he only uses a laptop himself, so I believe him on that one.

That said you're right in that this flat design without a foldable screen is not exactly made for long work hours. I'd say for a session on the go with the device sitting on the lap it could be worse, though at least a detachable/external keyboard would help a lot.

> the angles and positioning are supposed to be pretty good

This seems hard to imagine, your neck is still going to be strained by looking "down" on the screen all the time. If you have to work with a laptop and don't have access to an external screen at least put it up on a pile of books and use an external keyboard / mouse. That doesn't cost much and improves your posture so much.

Experience and my neck agrees with you. Sitting properly, my neck would has to be at about a 35° - 45° angle to see the screen at all. It's a guaranteed tension headache.

> This seems hard to imagine

It is, but real experience tells me it can work well.

As I mentioned, having a proper setup with an external screen(or your equivalent suggestion of propping up the laptop and using external input devices) is better in comparison, but knowing how to properly use a laptop if that's not possible is important as well.

Given OSHA's recommendations on setting up a computer workstation, I think perhaps you need a new physical therapist:

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/computerworkstations/index....

As it literally says in that text you linked, not every posture works for everyone. I did not claim that a laptop leads to the best situation for ergonomics, I just wanted to debunk the "there's no way using a laptop could ever be healthy" claim which both a professional I know as well as my own experience don't agree with. It can be healthy, though admittedly most people don't do it right.

I'm glad I listened to his advice because it seemed to fix my issues for good. If you found a comfortable setup that's different then that's great as well.

Your original post wasn't just limited to "in my case". Your original post talked about your PT specifically claiming laptops were better.

> I just wanted to debunk

> a professional I know

Please provide proper sources, not random hearsay.

Clearly we need something like OSHA to enforce minimal workplace safety, but is OSHA meaningful as an authority on general health issues like computer use? A couple of years ago I might have said yes, but after recent events I find it really hard to put much weight on the opinions of these bureaucratic agencies.

The truth is, it's really hard to do a double-blinded study for these kinds long-term health concerns.

That quote is specifically in reference to this flat device. I agree that with a laptop you can achieve a relatively ergonomic posture if you set it up the way you describe, which minimises the "hunch" and strain, although you can do much better with some accessories. When I work away from home I use a laptop with a laptop stand ( https://www.therooststand.com/ ) and external HIDs.

Of course, any good physical therapist will tell you that no hardware can offset the damage of long-term sedentary work. One might say that more active time is the best ergonomic solution.

Yeah, it looks awesome but I'd be more likely to prop my phone up and use termux + tmux and an external keyboard...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com