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Comment by nicolas_t | Hacker News Reader

The problem I have with tipping in the US is that because of the judgement that prevents restaurants from forcing the waiters to share tips with the kitchen staff it means that Waiters end up being better paid and better compensated than kitchen staff in many cases (especially in upscale restaurants where the minimum accepted 20% tip is often a not insignificant amount of money).

And, while good service is welcome, I never go to a restaurant for the waiters, I go there because of the food. I've eaten at restaurants with absolutely awful service and came back often because the food was amazing. I've never once came back to a restaurant where the food was mediocre but the service was amazing. So why should my tips go to the least important staff in the restaurant?

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This is one reason why turnover is so high in the back end. Not only are many overworked, but they also get bitched at by everybody in the restaurant if they don't do something right or have to make a change. Meanwhile waiters and expos don't have any actual skills.

If you haven’t noticed turnover in the front of the house is also very high.

Trust me, as someone that’s been both front and back of house, being a waiter is not easy. Different skillset than being a cook, no doubt, but personally I found waiting far more stressful.

Bad waiters also gets tips since they are mandatory.

No they’re really not. They’re discretionary.

Waiters gets angry and starts arguing with you if you don't tip, it is as close to mandatory you can get without making it illegal.

you still don't have too

True, but you may not want to return and receive service from a waiter whom gets combative over how little you tip. As another person who has worked both front and back of house, I’ve seen and heard some pretty awful stuff.

This is particularly why I hate the new custom of tipping before even receiving service or food. You have to do some game theoretic dance to decide whether you’ll get bad service if you tip low up front vs get bad service anyways because they’ve already got your money.

In theory Yes. In practice, do that to a waiter and if they remember you next time, Good luck eating that food. Tipping is seen almost as an entitled benefit now but provided by the customers instead of employers. It is a lose-lose situation for the customer and employee because waiters get paid like shit by their employer while customer has to cough up the "tip" regardless of how they felt about the food and service.

Why would you return to a restaurant where the service was so poor you didn't feel like leaving a tip?

I've not left a tip a handful of times over some exceptionally bad service and food and never felt the desire to return to those restaurants.

I had thought the same, but a year a later that waiter was working at a different restaurant, I like. Needless say I have very distinctive hair. whether or not they remember me because my hair or not leaving tipping I don't know.

Still was interesting they remembered me a year later from a restaurant I only went to once.

A waiter sees hundreds of people every single night. Unless you were particularly rude or did something memorable, I don't think they'd remember. People always believe people are paying more attention to them than they really are.

Hell you probably weren't the only person not tipping that same night.

Let them yell. If they gave you such bad service that it comes to that, it's not like you'll be coming back to that restaurant anyway. I have refused to tip a handful of times and not once have I had any desire to return to those restaurants. They could burn down for all I care.

You walk out the door. Or you wait until the server is away from your table before walking out the door if you don't want to risk confrontation.

Fall on the ground and knock over a table, claim the waiter shoved you. Demand a free meal from the manager. Win win!

I'm kidding about the above, but to be honest, you just don't say anything. The likelihood they're gonna slash your tires or something on your way out isn't even a possibility.

From reading many threads about this kind of thing: tips in the US rised in recent years. In many places if you only tip 10% you're being asked what was wrong with your food (don't dare to only tip 5%!). 15% is considered mediocre, 20% is baseline "all good". 25% starts to be on the "very good" side.

It's really weird to me how recommended tip levels have shifted in my lifetime (really in the past 15 years):

When I was a kid in the 80s/90s, 15% was standard (there was even the mnemonic to calculate it: 10% is easy to calculate, then take half that and add it). 18% was for really outstanding service, 20% was for outstanding service when someone wanted to show off, and 25% was basically unheard of besides some gossip mag detailing how rich a celebrity was ("They tipped 25%!")

Now I see tip amounts that default to 20%. My hypothesis, and perhaps this is a relatively sad commentary in the US, is that the level of inequality in major US cities is off the charts: for many people eating at a nice restaurant in a major city, food, even eating out, is a tiny portion of their overall budget, so adding 5% is really nothing, but people working in restaurants are really struggling to get by (and diners know it), so the increased tip rate is basically a consequence of trying to make unaffordable large cities bearable for workers.

Yeah I remember distinctively that 10% used to be the go to. Then one day I mentioned that to someone and they balked and just said "Only?" I said that's fair isn't it? They said I should be doing at least 20% minimum. Ever since then I've just stopped going to places that require tipping. I just hate it. I hate knowing when to tip, who to tip, what if someone else sees me tip something that might be too low, someone balks at how much I tip. I just hate it all around. This is why I never if at all go to places that tip. I like to stick to places where I know what I'm gonna spend the moment I place my order. I don't even care if I gotta drive myself to get my order. I just hate dealing with tipping culture in general. It places a cultural onus on me that places me in a situation that I want to avoid entirely.

If you see "gratuity" on the bill, that's a required tip. From what I remember they're usually only added for large groups though (like 6+ people).

I can’t recall any restaurant I’ve ever eaten at in the world were a tip was mandatory. If you eat with a large party of several people, usually at least six or eight people, then they will often add a service charge to the bill, that’s the only thing I’ve seen that comes close to what you’re suggesting.

If you think waiters don't have any actual skills, I encourage you to spend some time as a waiter at a busy restaurant where most of your income is in the form of tips, and then see how your skills improve over time. It is not an easy job, and harder still to make it a good customer experience. You must develop skills to make it work or you can't last for long.

GP went too far with that claim but I think their broader point is valid - BOH work is at least comparably hard and demanding to FOH work but often pays 1/4 to 1/2 as much. Same goes for lots of other “unskilled” non-tipped jobs.

This is no longer the case as of two years ago!

https://www.eater.com/2018/6/12/17439694/tipping-laws-tip-sh...

> the minimum accepted 20% tip

What does “minimum accepted tip” mean? How is it not just 20% taken off the prices if it’s mandatory to pay it?

Sounds a bit like mandatory donations. Not much of a donation then eh?

Tips isn't a donation, it is coerced from the customer since they know many waiters will make a fuss if they don't tip.

If the service is acceptable, you tip ~20% (still okay to round down a few cents). If the service is bad, you don't tip 20%. Usually, if you complain, they will give you some part of your meal free or otherwise provide an adequate remedy, in which case you still tip 20%. Otherwise, it's okay to tip less. You can leave 10%. You can even leave 0%, but don't expect to come back. A sincere apology and attempt to remedy at least deserves some tip.

This is what’s some times internationally called a “service charge”, not a tip. It's part of the agreed price, not something I voluntarily add. The "price" is what I can pay and still return.

It’s effectively a part of the agreed transaction. I understand the mechanics of it, but it’s extremely weird to me (who isn’t American). I’d be fine with service charges of almost any level. Also if it said “service charge is 30% - please let us know if you aren’t happy with the service and we’ll remove it or compensate you”. That’s fine.

What’s important to me is that it’s on the receipt.

I wonder how Americans feel paying 0% tip without complaining in Europe (I wouldn’t ever complain and possibly not come back).

It’s a different culture. In America, “the customer is always right.” That’s not literally true, but the general approach is that the customer, the one bringing the money, is the boss and his reasonable requests should be hastily fulfilled. That authority is reflected in the power to set the tip. In Europe that is emphatically not the case, especially outside upscale establishments. America is actually drifting toward Europe on this point, with millennials being less willing to complain or to penalize in the tip. But a wide gulf remains.

In some other cultures, good service is considered more of a moral obligation. The shame of providing bad service and of being known for it keeps waiters and their managers on their toes. Different culture.

I don't like the concept of tipping in the first place (although I make an effort to tip well anyway), but I definitely do not want tipping expanded any further than it already is.

If restaurant owners can create an even more opaque pricing structure that shifts the rest of their employee costs onto customers they will.

Thing is, it's not even the restaurant owners that are blocking a change to "all incl." prices - it's the waiters, too.

Waiting is one of the very few jobs where an untrained person can earn lots of money just by doing their job and being nice.

I don't even understand what 'amazing service' would even be? Someone filling your water glass the instant it was empty (just leave a jug on the table thanks), or someone bringing your food from the kitchen and placing it down in front of you in a timely manner?

What even is 'great service' as opposed to 'sufficient service'

Sometimes servers will be really cool and have a conversation with you, or make jokes, or be really charismatic, or go out of their way to figure out what kind of food you can eat if you have a weird allergy, and be really nice and obviously wanting to be helpful. They can please a difficult family member who generally complains about everything, or make great food suggestions based off what you say you like. There's a lot of stuff a server can do to go out of their way to stand out. Are you saying you've never had a server where you thought to yourself after you leave "wow, that guy was great."? (also I think some places aren't allowed to, or can't put pitchers on tables, so just ask for 2 waters for yourself if you drink a lot of water and don't want to be bugged)

Wouldn’t sharing tips ruin the whole incentive for good service argument as well?

Tips being an incentive for good service would violate causality. In reality, waiters get higher tips for being white and attractive, which isn't exactly unexpected given the racist crap mentioned in the article.

Part of the service is cooking your food, right?

No, sharing tips with the kitchen is Very Rare. If you’re tipping straight into the kitchen, then your money might do something, but who tips into the kitchen?

Why is the pay rate of the waiters vis-a-vis the kitchen staff of any concern at all to you? And what makes you think you have any sense of the labor market for wait and kitchen staff? Do you fret over pay disparity in other retail interactions?

Honestly it seems more like a post-hoc justification to avoid an interaction which seems to make many people uncomfortable. There is tension between not wanting to feel like a chump for voluntarily overpaying and not not wanting to appear cheap.

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