When tipping was considered un-American (2015) | Hacker News Reader

When tipping was considered un-American (2015)

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80 pointspseudolus241 comments

The problem I have with tipping in the US is that because of the judgement that prevents restaurants from forcing the waiters to share tips with the kitchen staff it means that Waiters end up being better paid and better compensated than kitchen staff in many cases (especially in upscale restaurants where the minimum accepted 20% tip is often a not insignificant amount of money).

And, while good service is welcome, I never go to a restaurant for the waiters, I go there because of the food. I've eaten at restaurants with absolutely awful service and came back often because the food was amazing. I've never once came back to a restaurant where the food was mediocre but the service was amazing. So why should my tips go to the least important staff in the restaurant?

I don't like the concept of tipping in the first place (although I make an effort to tip well anyway), but I definitely do not want tipping expanded any further than it already is.

If restaurant owners can create an even more opaque pricing structure that shifts the rest of their employee costs onto customers they will.

Thing is, it's not even the restaurant owners that are blocking a change to "all incl." prices - it's the waiters, too.

Waiting is one of the very few jobs where an untrained person can earn lots of money just by doing their job and being nice.

This is one reason why turnover is so high in the back end. Not only are many overworked, but they also get bitched at by everybody in the restaurant if they don't do something right or have to make a change. Meanwhile waiters and expos don't have any actual skills.

If you haven’t noticed turnover in the front of the house is also very high.

Trust me, as someone that’s been both front and back of house, being a waiter is not easy. Different skillset than being a cook, no doubt, but personally I found waiting far more stressful.

Bad waiters also gets tips since they are mandatory.

No they’re really not. They’re discretionary.

Waiters gets angry and starts arguing with you if you don't tip, it is as close to mandatory you can get without making it illegal.

you still don't have too

True, but you may not want to return and receive service from a waiter whom gets combative over how little you tip. As another person who has worked both front and back of house, I’ve seen and heard some pretty awful stuff.

This is particularly why I hate the new custom of tipping before even receiving service or food. You have to do some game theoretic dance to decide whether you’ll get bad service if you tip low up front vs get bad service anyways because they’ve already got your money.

In theory Yes. In practice, do that to a waiter and if they remember you next time, Good luck eating that food. Tipping is seen almost as an entitled benefit now but provided by the customers instead of employers. It is a lose-lose situation for the customer and employee because waiters get paid like shit by their employer while customer has to cough up the "tip" regardless of how they felt about the food and service.

Why would you return to a restaurant where the service was so poor you didn't feel like leaving a tip?

I've not left a tip a handful of times over some exceptionally bad service and food and never felt the desire to return to those restaurants.

I had thought the same, but a year a later that waiter was working at a different restaurant, I like. Needless say I have very distinctive hair. whether or not they remember me because my hair or not leaving tipping I don't know.

Still was interesting they remembered me a year later from a restaurant I only went to once.

A waiter sees hundreds of people every single night. Unless you were particularly rude or did something memorable, I don't think they'd remember. People always believe people are paying more attention to them than they really are.

Hell you probably weren't the only person not tipping that same night.

Let them yell. If they gave you such bad service that it comes to that, it's not like you'll be coming back to that restaurant anyway. I have refused to tip a handful of times and not once have I had any desire to return to those restaurants. They could burn down for all I care.

You walk out the door. Or you wait until the server is away from your table before walking out the door if you don't want to risk confrontation.

Fall on the ground and knock over a table, claim the waiter shoved you. Demand a free meal from the manager. Win win!

I'm kidding about the above, but to be honest, you just don't say anything. The likelihood they're gonna slash your tires or something on your way out isn't even a possibility.

From reading many threads about this kind of thing: tips in the US rised in recent years. In many places if you only tip 10% you're being asked what was wrong with your food (don't dare to only tip 5%!). 15% is considered mediocre, 20% is baseline "all good". 25% starts to be on the "very good" side.

It's really weird to me how recommended tip levels have shifted in my lifetime (really in the past 15 years):

When I was a kid in the 80s/90s, 15% was standard (there was even the mnemonic to calculate it: 10% is easy to calculate, then take half that and add it). 18% was for really outstanding service, 20% was for outstanding service when someone wanted to show off, and 25% was basically unheard of besides some gossip mag detailing how rich a celebrity was ("They tipped 25%!")

Now I see tip amounts that default to 20%. My hypothesis, and perhaps this is a relatively sad commentary in the US, is that the level of inequality in major US cities is off the charts: for many people eating at a nice restaurant in a major city, food, even eating out, is a tiny portion of their overall budget, so adding 5% is really nothing, but people working in restaurants are really struggling to get by (and diners know it), so the increased tip rate is basically a consequence of trying to make unaffordable large cities bearable for workers.

Yeah I remember distinctively that 10% used to be the go to. Then one day I mentioned that to someone and they balked and just said "Only?" I said that's fair isn't it? They said I should be doing at least 20% minimum. Ever since then I've just stopped going to places that require tipping. I just hate it. I hate knowing when to tip, who to tip, what if someone else sees me tip something that might be too low, someone balks at how much I tip. I just hate it all around. This is why I never if at all go to places that tip. I like to stick to places where I know what I'm gonna spend the moment I place my order. I don't even care if I gotta drive myself to get my order. I just hate dealing with tipping culture in general. It places a cultural onus on me that places me in a situation that I want to avoid entirely.

If you see "gratuity" on the bill, that's a required tip. From what I remember they're usually only added for large groups though (like 6+ people).

I can’t recall any restaurant I’ve ever eaten at in the world were a tip was mandatory. If you eat with a large party of several people, usually at least six or eight people, then they will often add a service charge to the bill, that’s the only thing I’ve seen that comes close to what you’re suggesting.

If you think waiters don't have any actual skills, I encourage you to spend some time as a waiter at a busy restaurant where most of your income is in the form of tips, and then see how your skills improve over time. It is not an easy job, and harder still to make it a good customer experience. You must develop skills to make it work or you can't last for long.

GP went too far with that claim but I think their broader point is valid - BOH work is at least comparably hard and demanding to FOH work but often pays 1/4 to 1/2 as much. Same goes for lots of other “unskilled” non-tipped jobs.

> the minimum accepted 20% tip

What does “minimum accepted tip” mean? How is it not just 20% taken off the prices if it’s mandatory to pay it?

Sounds a bit like mandatory donations. Not much of a donation then eh?

Tips isn't a donation, it is coerced from the customer since they know many waiters will make a fuss if they don't tip.

If the service is acceptable, you tip ~20% (still okay to round down a few cents). If the service is bad, you don't tip 20%. Usually, if you complain, they will give you some part of your meal free or otherwise provide an adequate remedy, in which case you still tip 20%. Otherwise, it's okay to tip less. You can leave 10%. You can even leave 0%, but don't expect to come back. A sincere apology and attempt to remedy at least deserves some tip.

This is what’s some times internationally called a “service charge”, not a tip. It's part of the agreed price, not something I voluntarily add. The "price" is what I can pay and still return.

It’s effectively a part of the agreed transaction. I understand the mechanics of it, but it’s extremely weird to me (who isn’t American). I’d be fine with service charges of almost any level. Also if it said “service charge is 30% - please let us know if you aren’t happy with the service and we’ll remove it or compensate you”. That’s fine.

What’s important to me is that it’s on the receipt.

I wonder how Americans feel paying 0% tip without complaining in Europe (I wouldn’t ever complain and possibly not come back).

It’s a different culture. In America, “the customer is always right.” That’s not literally true, but the general approach is that the customer, the one bringing the money, is the boss and his reasonable requests should be hastily fulfilled. That authority is reflected in the power to set the tip. In Europe that is emphatically not the case, especially outside upscale establishments. America is actually drifting toward Europe on this point, with millennials being less willing to complain or to penalize in the tip. But a wide gulf remains.

In some other cultures, good service is considered more of a moral obligation. The shame of providing bad service and of being known for it keeps waiters and their managers on their toes. Different culture.

Why is the pay rate of the waiters vis-a-vis the kitchen staff of any concern at all to you? And what makes you think you have any sense of the labor market for wait and kitchen staff? Do you fret over pay disparity in other retail interactions?

Honestly it seems more like a post-hoc justification to avoid an interaction which seems to make many people uncomfortable. There is tension between not wanting to feel like a chump for voluntarily overpaying and not not wanting to appear cheap.

I don't even understand what 'amazing service' would even be? Someone filling your water glass the instant it was empty (just leave a jug on the table thanks), or someone bringing your food from the kitchen and placing it down in front of you in a timely manner?

What even is 'great service' as opposed to 'sufficient service'

Sometimes servers will be really cool and have a conversation with you, or make jokes, or be really charismatic, or go out of their way to figure out what kind of food you can eat if you have a weird allergy, and be really nice and obviously wanting to be helpful. They can please a difficult family member who generally complains about everything, or make great food suggestions based off what you say you like. There's a lot of stuff a server can do to go out of their way to stand out. Are you saying you've never had a server where you thought to yourself after you leave "wow, that guy was great."? (also I think some places aren't allowed to, or can't put pitchers on tables, so just ask for 2 waters for yourself if you drink a lot of water and don't want to be bugged)

Wouldn’t sharing tips ruin the whole incentive for good service argument as well?

Tips being an incentive for good service would violate causality. In reality, waiters get higher tips for being white and attractive, which isn't exactly unexpected given the racist crap mentioned in the article.

Part of the service is cooking your food, right?

No, sharing tips with the kitchen is Very Rare. If you’re tipping straight into the kitchen, then your money might do something, but who tips into the kitchen?

This is no longer the case as of two years ago!

https://www.eater.com/2018/6/12/17439694/tipping-laws-tip-sh...

My complaint (as an Australian) against tipping is that I have no idea what the cost of my meal ends up being.

If I dine out here at say a pub, the price for a steak is $30 AUD and the price of a beer is $5.

The total price I pay is $35 AUD.

This includes tax.

This includes the wage for the staff front and back of house.

And if for some reason I'm feeling like tipping the staff because they went the 'extra mile', I can optionally do so.

This is super confusing in the US (as a visitor) when the price of a meal is advertised as $xx and then you go to pay and it's actually $xx + tax + tip.

If I'm paying a minimum price of $xx + tax + 10% tip, why not just make that the price of the item? It just makes no sense to me!

>why not just make that the price of the item? It just makes no sense to me!

There's nothing stopping them from doing so but it benefits them by being deliberately opaque.

Also, worth noting is that Americans consider 10% to be a stingy tip.

> Also, worth noting is that Americans consider 10% to be a stingy tip.

How do you even know this? Who determines what a tip should be?

It isn't written down anywhere. You just watch what other people do and copy them.

It isn't helpful (for a foreigner) in that you ask people "how much should I tip?" a lot of service staff won't give a clear answer. (They think it is rude to answer or something?)

On business trips to the US, I observed what my American colleagues did, and copied their behaviour.

I used to always tip 10% until I saw my American coworkers were always tipping 20% so I switched to that.

Nobody ever complained when I tipped 10% though. (Maybe they are more tolerant of stingy tipping from obvious foreigners?)

(And whether 10% or 20%, it was a business trip so my employer paid for it anyway.)

It's hard to document such things, but one place to look would be Point of Sale systems that show the most popular tipping options. They usually default to 10, 15, and 20%. I've also seen 15, 20, and 25%.

Of course, the merchant can change the setting to determine which options are shown as quick picks. I'm just talking about defaults.

My most recent trip to a tipping country was Canada, and the POS systems were often configured to suggest higher tips than the locals were giving.

In one case, the waitress apologised and blamed the owner.

No one.

I'll shame everyone who tips less than 30% with the usual arguments. You can google those arguments; it's something like they don't make enough money and etc.

In reality, I tip only 15%. For delivery, I don't tip if there's already a service fee. I only tip because I'm scared I'll be assaulted. Yes, some people got assaulted (or verbally assaulted) because the tip less.

Also, I don't tip if I won't see that person in real life.

That's how tipping percentage is determined. The person who screams the loudest win. It's stupid.

Brave. While I don't agree with your method, not tipping for someone who knows where you live for contactless delivery is ballsy. I personally wouldn't risk it.

Good gosh. You're right. Maybe I should tip to avoid future problems. Needless to say, I'm loving the tipping system where I should tip to stay alive.

Tipping rules are a convention by social consensus which, to make it even more complicated, is regional and slowly changes over time. Different parts of the US have somewhat different tipping conventions.

Even as an American, if you travel to a different part of the country you figure out the local tipping convention by observing other people.

It's a widely known social norm in America. The same way you know to say 'thank you' or 'excuse me', Americans know to tip 20% for acceptable service.

Last time I visited the USA I'd just read a John Gruber post where he'd explained tipping is not complicated at all, just tip 20%. He said he always had done this, and that basically all Americans knew this was what you were supposed to do. I enjoyed the trip more than previous trips because I now had this new superpower, I felt like an insider who no longer felt anxious. I would sort of casually and knowingly do the 20% thing, but sadly since it doesn't happen in advance I suspect I was still treated as a foreign guy who wouldn't know how much to tip :(

> My complaint (as an Australian) against tipping is that I have no idea what the cost of my meal ends up being.

That is one of the purposes of tips. Price obfuscation is good for the sellers.

What's even more absurd: Consider ordering a bottle of wine for $30 vs. a bottle of wine for $300. The waiter has to do the exact same thing but suddenly you are expected to tip $60 instead of $6 if you were satisfied with the experience.

There's an argument that if you're in a place that's selling $300 bottles of wine, and ordering $300 bottles of wine, there's an increased expectation on the server to be knowledgable about that wine, what to pair it with, etc. Whereas I wouldn't expect much knowledge from a place that sells a $30 bottle of wine outside of varietal and whether it's good or popular.

I still think tipping is BS, but higher end restaurants will attract higher skilled front of house, and so it makes sense that they'll be paid more despite doing the same thing.

What if I don't need that expertise because I know exactly what wine I want?

That's the same stupid reason why we have a dog tax in Germany. Some centuries ago some king - just on impulse - decided "if people can feed a dog they surely must have some extra money to give to their king". And we have to pay that stupid tax even today.

If you have money to spend on a $300 bottle of wine, you can probably afford a bigger tip. If you don't want to tip 15-20% on that $300, don't. There's a big difference from owning a dog, and paying for its food, than spending money on a fun alcoholic beverage.

Being from a culture that usually tends to quote consumer prices all inclusive, I find the practice of doing otherwise outright slimy and deceptive. I admit this is irrationally emotional but it's one of those little details that somehow shapes my perception of the USA as a whole.

*quoting b2b prices without vat is fair as whether or not tax is payable depends on the customer.

As a European I agree. It's bizarre trying to buy things in America, where you're expected to keep a running tally of state and federal taxes. Just put the actual price on the label, how hard is that?

As an American, most every state has a standardized tax rate statewide. In Texas it is 8.25%. Florida is 6%. This means that most of your daily transactions are predictable.

Weird exceptions might be for infrequent purchases like cars that are taxed differently.

Well, in Texas it varies from a minimum of 6.25% to a maximum of 8.25%, but 8.25 is indeed typical:

> Texas imposes a 6.25 percent state sales and use tax on all retail sales, leases and rentals of most goods, as well as taxable services. Local taxing jurisdictions (cities, counties, special purpose districts and transit authorities) can also impose up to 2 percent sales and use tax for a maximum combined rate of 8.25 percent.

https://comptroller.texas.gov/taxes/sales//

Literally every city imposes the 2%. Its defacto 8.25% statewide.

This is predictable IF you spend a lot of time there, but if you don't, say as a foreigner travelling throughout the US, it is not.

Again, it's just extra hassle for no good reason, I don't understand why printing the FULL price of the item on the sticker/sign/whatever isn't a thing.

It's more like you are expected not to care how much the full total is. If you are frugal enough to care, its pretty easy to estimate for your own local area since you do it constantly.

American retail sales culture is fixated on price - percentage off deals, 'now only x' etc are far more prominent than in Europe. Not sure how that squares with being expected not to care about the overall total of a purchase.

It's not that complicated. Tip is $2 on top of every $10. You know the sales tax where you live.

10% tip will get you spit in your food if you ever go back there.

Just FYI.

So where's the manual for someone who just arrived in the US explaining that? How am I supposed to know that if someone doesn't tell me?

How is that even a vaguely acceptable response, let alone _expected_ behavior I should anticipate? I cannot even fathom someone spitting in my food in Australia under pretty much any circumstance.

Absolutely ludicrous!

> In 1942, the Supreme Court ruled that employees had an exclusive right to their tips and that their employers could not force them to share their tips with kitchen staff.

What happened to that? What I really can't stand about tipping is that most of the time it goes to some dumb "tip share" scheme.

My wife (then GF) worked at several restaurants in college and they all had tip shares. Even hosts and kitchen staff were included in the share. They were all payed under minimum wage, but the restaurant had to pay the difference if the tips alone didn't bring their wages up to the minimum (which happened more often than not).

I realized that when I tip, I'm usually not rewarding the waiter/waitress. That reward usually gets split across dozens of people and my waiter/waitress likely sees none of it. Worse still, most of the time it isn't even a bonus to their wage. The $5/hr-ish is effectively deducted from their tips so I'm just paying their wages so the restaurant doesn't have to.

What a scam. Regardless what you think of tipping, tip shares should absolutely be illegal.

In my experience, the waiters tipped the bar staff and the busboys out of our own tips A our discretion. And in general the bar staff did a good job, but they absolutely knew which waiters tipped well and which tipped poorly.

That seems absurd.

Also I've heard in some places, the amount to share is calculated from the overall tips. So if you had a bad evening and made less than your colleagues, you're actually paying part of the share out of your own pocket.

But still, there seem to be lots of people willing to do these jobs.

> But still, there seem to be lots of people willing to do these jobs.

You mean the students, fresh grads, and otherwise-unemployed who basically have no other choice? I'm not sure them being "willing to do these jobs" is a great defense for the practice considering their alternative.

> I realized that when I tip, I'm usually not rewarding the waiter/waitress. That reward usually gets split across dozens of people and my waiter/waitress likely sees none of it.

This seems...really good! I’d rather be able to tip the people who actually make the food and clean the table (things that matter!), than the person whose only responsibilities are carrying the food to the table and not saying annoying or obnoxious things. I couldn’t disagree more with you here.

You missed the point.

They earn something like $4/hr + their portion of the tip share. If the tip share is not enough to bring their wage up to minimum ($7.25/hr in most cases), the employer must pay the difference. Tip share is almost never enough to make up the difference, so they earn minimum wage regardless of whether they're part of the "tip share". The waitstaff earns less with a "tip share" because their tips get deducted from in order to pay the other employees' minimum wages.

Here's an example: say you have a restaurant with 2 waiters, 2 cooks, and 1 host. "Tip wage" is $4/hr and minimum wage is $7.25/hr. The waiters each bring in $7.50/hr in tips ($15/hr combined).

Without tip share, waiters get $11.50/hr ($4/hr wage + $7.50/hr tips) while the cooks and host get $7.25/hr.

With tip share, everyone gets $7.25/hr ($4/hr tip wage + $3/hr tips + $0.25/hr difference from the employer).

It's just a scheme to fund wages for cooks and hosts using tips from the waitstaff.

>They earn something like $4/hr + their portion of the tip share.

You are posting this on Hacker News. Most of the people in this community live in states where waitstaff earn more than $4/hour base, thanks to state laws. Read the room.

What are you talking about? It's less than $4/hr in most states. Only 15 states have tipping wages higher than that (out of 43 who have legal tipping wages).

https://www.minimum-wage.org/tipped

Only 2 of those states have a tip credit of less than $3/hr.

Where do you think most HN posters live?

From what I have seen, all over the world.

You're probably implying that most HN users live in CA, OR, and WA where tipping wages are not legal.

Hopefully you're not referring to the NYC area. NYC tipping wage is $5/hr less than minimum. NY state is almost $4/hr under. NJ and MA are more than $7/hr under. DE and RI are more than $6/hr under. MD is more than $5/hr under. PA is more than $4/hr under. CT isn't too bad, though, at within $2/hr under.

Somehow I doubt you're implying most HN users live in HI, IA, or ND - the only other states with legal tipping wages within $3/hr of minimum. I also doubt you're implying most HN users live in AK, MN, MT, or NV - the only other states without legal tipping wages.

Not that it matters. Even if the overwhelming majority of HN users lived in a west coast state (maybe it used to be that way, but I'm skeptical of that now), most HN users also probably don't work as restaurant staff. A bad thing isn't less bad just because it doesn't directly affect you.

Do you have an actual point to make against anything I've said?

I didn’t miss anything there. I said that it’s better to fund cooks and other staff than to just tip the waitstaff.

In theory yes what you missed is that it’s actually intended to defraud the back of the house and play less than minimum wage then use tips to barely bring back the difference.

How is it better? The cooks and hosts make the same wage because the tips aren't enough to make up the difference. The waitstaff makes less because their tips are deducted from to pay the cooks and hosts. The customer looses because they payed extra for their meal, but didn't actually increase the wages of the people who made it and served them.

The only winner is the restaurant owners who get away with paying their staff less.

This is effectively a "minimum wage tax" in addition to the sales tax. Alternatively, it can be seen as a clever way to monetize guilt, by redirecting the staff's anger from the boss to the customer.

Could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for other users to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

The worst part about mandatory tipping in the United States is that it does not improve service at all, and the service in American restaurants strikes me as poor and stuck in a rut: it is mainly in North America that waiters continually circle about back to the table uninvited, asking “Are you doing OK?” or “Can I get you anything else?” when you are just trying to have a private and leisurely conversation with your dinner companions.

Sometimes this must be because their boss is telling them to gently push customers out the door to free up the table. Sometimes it might be because the waiter himself releases that by freeing up the table for another set of diners, he stands to get obligatory-tipped twice that evening instead of just once. But with a culture of obligatory tipping, customers have no way to penalize waiters for such over-intrusive behavior.

Tipping itself should be that mechanism. "You kept interrupting us after we asked you not to do so. No tip for you"

I'd appreciate if someone who disagrees explained their point of view.

Is that not why fixed tips exist? To reward good service? Everyone pays the same percentage, except when the service is exceptionally good or bad?

I've worked at a restaurant for years, same with my friends. Good servers know how to not be too pushy. You greet them when they sit down, ask for drinks. You drop off drinks, take an order for appetizers. When you drop off appetizers, you take their food order and look around to check to see if anyone needs refills. You come back with refills, and then bring over the food when it's done. You walk past the table to check if there is any empty dishes to grab, and ask if they need anything else when you do.

Basically, my point is every trip that you need to make anyways, you check the table. If a table is hanging for too long, you start to get a little more pushy, because it's a business that's trying to make money. If it's a busy Saturday night and you have a table that doesn't want to leave, other people have to wait longer for that table, and also the restaurant makes less money. Imagine your annoyance if you make a reservation at a restaurant, and you get sat late because people are taking 3 hours to finish up.

Your point about obligatory tipping and not being able to penalize servers doesn't make any sense. If service is that bad, you just don't tip. If a server yells at you, you talk to the manager or just walk out the door. I've put zero for a tip a few times and no one has given me a hard time, and if they do, your night was already ruined by awful service anyways. Also, if you make it out the door in time, the servers won't even see your check by the time you're gone. If you can't bring yourself not to tip someone, that's on you. It happens ALL THE TIME. Almost every other night a server will tell me that so and so didn't tip, or tipped a dollar, etc.

By the way, none of this is for or against tipping, I'm just explaining my thoughts on the current system.

>it is mainly in North America that waiters continually circle about back to the table uninvited, asking “Are you doing OK?” or “Can I get you anything else?” when you are just trying to have a private and leisurely conversation with your dinner companions.

It's probably cultural, but Americans generally like that (unless its overboard). I prefer saying "no thanks" to the alternative I tend to face in europe--where the waiter only comes to take the order, drop off food, and take the bill.

Trying get a second bottle of wine or address a problem with one's food is hard in Europe b/c of that.

I wonder if it America's rule that its rude to snap or point to grab the waiters attention.

I like American table service and can't stand European table service. I am a somewhat needy customer. I want another beer, different condiments, etc. and it's nice to not have to wait for them.

The real thing with tipping IMO is the unknown of where and when it's expected. At least at restaurants, it's pretty standard that you're supposed to tip and roughly how much.

It's like, there's some mysterious unknown correct tip amount. If you don't just automatically know this amount and don't tip at all or too little, then you're a jerk. If you tip too much, then you're a sucker or trying to get some other kind of favor. How about if you want to make a particular amount of money for doing some job, you just tell me how much you want? I can either agree and pay it and we're both happy, or not do it at all and at least nobody feels ripped off.

Like with Uber, one of the key features for a long time was there was no way to leave a tip, so there was no awkward question as to whether you should leave a tip. But now they ask for tips so prominently. Am I supposed to leave a tip? Uber is so expensive already, it’s not like adding a tip is something I’m willing to do unless I absolutely have to, like it’s understood I have to at a restaurant. It’s so frustrating.

Lack of tips was the best thing about Uber. I've always found tipping to be absurd and actually hoped that Uber's popularity would help it set precedent in regards to tipping. It was disappointing to see them cave in to the complaints and add it in.

Count me as firmly in the anti-tipping camp. The article fails to mention the fact that tipping actually creates an environment where more prejudice (not less) can be exposed. If you aren't a stereotypical "good-looking" female server, you will statistically earn far fewer tips. The same goes for people working in the kitchen (as the article mentions).

If your servers (or anyone working in the restaurant) demand higher wages, pay them the fair wage and charge what it costs to operate at that level. The expectation of a tip feels similar to the hidden fees charged by wireless carriers so they can advertise a much lower rate.

I agree, but what is the best path to end this ridiculous custom? Simply not tipping is unethical, as tipped employees generally make less than minimum wage.

You've answered it yourself

> what is the best path to end this ridiculous custom?

> minimum wage

Do you really think a higher minimum wage would end the expectation of tipping? Asking honestly, because I just don't see that as a solution to this problem. There's a discussion to be had around minimum wage, but that feels like an entirely separate issue.

Yes, it would. Civilized states have done away with tipped minimum wages, so employees can no longer complain about being taken advantage of by employers not paying them for tip totals not getting them to minimum wage limits.

There are different minimum wages for people in e.g. restaurant service, which is to me the quintessential tipping experience. If that went away, it could perhaps pave the path to less tipping overall

But I'm not defending the argument, just adding to the debate. I'm fine with tipping, personally, because I think it aligns incentives to encourage good service. That good looking people get better tips doesn't bother me in the slightest—life isn't fair.

1. Everyone stop tipping.

2. Greedy enployers can't use the promise of tipping as an excuse so they start to paying minimun wage.

3. Government intervenes making sure minimum wage is paid.

It starts with (1).

I'd say it starts with 3 otherwise all people in tip-funded service industry get screwed by the more wealthy people using their services.

The tipping hasn’t stopped even in states and cities the government has already done (3).

But what to do about all those waiters/waitresses that previously made money like some senior engineer and now get paid only minimum wage?

They wouldn't get even minimum wage. Servers earn less than minimum wage in many places, to compensate for the fact that they get tips.

Starting your movement with "don't tip" is a great way to punish workers without much chance of being successful. It should probably start with the restaurants, or even regulation.

AFAIK almost everywhere there's a law that makes it illegal to pay below minimum wage. And if they don't like it, they're free to find a better paid job for an unskilled worker elsewhere.

I still tip for the reason you mention, but I believe the change either needs to be made voluntarily by restaurants (as some are starting to do) or through legislation.

The west coast of the US has the same minimum wage regardless of tipping, and yet it’s still the norm to tip.

Right, which is why the minimum wage doesn't solve the problem (it may affect other things, but doesn't directly solve any of the issues with tipping). I was referring more to legislation that would limit/discourage restaurants from receiving tips (or at least communicating the expectation of tips).

There's certainly a lot of path dependency. Freakonomics has done some episodes on this. You can prohibit tipping and increase server wages. That part's easy. But: 1.) Your advertised menu prices are now higher than the competition. 2.) Servers (especially those in demographics who get tipped well and/or working at busy times) are now probably making less money than they would down the street.

Here in Ecuador restaurants typically add a 12% service charge to your bill. That seems better than just just increasing the price of the menu items and re-assures the customer that they are paying what would be the tip, and don't need to leave an additional tip.

That's common in many places in the UK as well. And, in the US, it's pretty standard for a mandatory 18% to be added to the bill for groups. (The thinking is that a server could be really screwed if they worked all night for a group that under-tipped, as is easy to happen with a big group splitting a bill.)

I don’t think anyone has a problem with that, as it’s clearly stated on the menu that there is an 18% charge.

I wouldn’t have a problem if the menu stated all items will have a mandatory extra 18% charge for gratuity. I would gladly pay it. I simply want it to be clearly stated and transparent.

I think any mandatory charge should be included in presented prices... Maybe that is just coming from country where I don't really need to calculate any of added taxes and so on.

True I think ideally menu prices include everything. However if you're trying to transition away from tipping, calling out service separately reassures customers that they don't need to tip on top of what they see on their bill, and that the overall cost hasn't changed, assuming they would have paid the service charge voluntarily as a tip.

Vote to remove the ridiculous exception from minim wages in restaurants. It really is an exception to let restaurants count patrons money as wages.

They are few and far between in the States, but some restaurants explicitly ban or discourage tipping and pay their staff a higher baseline wage. A good start would be patronizing such restaurants more frequently.

I agree with you, but the problem is most servers themselves are against overhauling tipping for higher minimum wages.

Source?

It's that so they can fiddle their taxes?

Why [else] would you not want to get the same money, on average, as a wage instead of having a high per diem variance?

Because, for one thing, absent tipping, pay would probably tend to be more egalitarian across front of house and back of house. And some servers (especially young females working busy shifts) would definitely lose out with a switch to a straight salary. This has been studied. Might check out the Freakonomics episodes on the topic. But restaurants that have tried to make the switch have largely gone back.

The number of attractive waitresses as proportion of all restaurant workers has to be a minority, surely? I can understand that a few will miss out on the possibility of flirting to get a higher wage, but that wasn't the OC's assertion.

Also, aren't most young women feminists, they should be against such things ...

The vast majority of "no tipping" policy restaurants I've read about fail in large part at the protestations of the staff. Maybe there's a lot I haven't read about, but I encourage you to look at the case histories. This does not mean however that it could not be accomplished by fiat as state policy, albeit with significant grumbling I'd assume.

First reason is that everybody likes to believe they are exceptional and will earn above average tips. Second reason is they want to evade taxes.

In practice, if you literally replace a 20% tip with a 20% service charge, gross wages for staff decline significantly -- this is a consistent pattern. This strongly suggests that they are not equivalent from the perspective of customer psychology in some important ways, changing customer behavior. Many restaurants in Seattle have tried this and it plays out the same way every time.

The consensus theory among my industry friends is that Americans are more generous with their spending when there is a perception that the money is going to a real person -- tipping -- whereas a service charge goes to the restaurant company. Customers attribute the cost of the meal differently in these two scenarios and they are not as willing to spend more money if it goes to some faceless company instead of a person they interact with.

Could you cite a study or other statistical evidence? I'm surprised to find that the median server gets tips >20% averaged over all customers as a voluntary contribution. It would be interesting to see a break down of the range of tips send which restaurants were in the study, etc..

Presumably other areas of devices, like clothing or general retail are getting demands from unions to move over to voluntary tipping to tap that generosity?

In UK it's relatively common to tip some hotel workers and taxi drivers -- do USA hotel room cleaners also benefit from this effect of tips>>charges?

One thing I have never got my head around as a European is that tipping with the Americam interpretation is self defeating its original purpose.

When I tip (outside the US) its done so as a genuine expression of gratitude for good service. It's my way of encouraging and rewarding good service. If its done under compulsion than its no longer a tip, it's a charge and good service is relegated as less meaningful.

"When I tip (outside the US) its done so as a genuine expression of gratitude for good service. It's my way of encouraging and rewarding good service. If its done under compulsion than its no longer a tip, it's a charge and good service is relegated as less meaningful."

That's interesting.

When in Europe I've found it pretty common to see a "tip" section in the bill, where the tip is already added on to the bill by the management and counted in to total you have to pay.

That's rare in the US, where at most one sees a "suggested amount", and usually tipping is completely optional.

What's the point of separating it?

Why not just increase the price of the food and service charges to compensate for the salaries?

It feels like some kind of psychological hack where they want price of food to appear cheap on paper till the moment you pay.

The point is you don't have to pay an optional tip if you are dissatisfied.

But you do have to pay the full total of your meal regardless of how you felt.

That's why making "tips" mandatory is the scam. It's not a tip if it's mandatory.

Most restaurants that do try to eliminate tips end up having an explicit service charge, rather than trying to bake it into the price of food, simply because otherwise all your food is suddenly 15-20% more expensive than the competition.

>When in Europe I've found it pretty common to see a "tip" section in the bill

I can't recall having ever seen this despite having travelled, and indeed continuing to travel, Europe extensively.

A denoted service charge is not uncommon, but I would be interested to see where exactly you believe the above to be commonly experienced.

"I would be interested to see where exactly you believe the above to be commonly experienced."

In the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Czech, I've found it to be pretty common. It could have been other countries as well, as I traveled relatively widely, mostly in Northern and Eastern Europe myself. But unfortunately I didn't keep a log of exactly where this happened. Just noticed it happened a lot, and was more the rule rather than the exception.

It is quite uncommon in the Netherlands. I see it on maybe 3% of all restaurant bills.

Well, maybe they've changed. I admit it's been more than a decade since I visited, so I wouldn't be that surprised if they started doing things more like Americans over time, as part of the McDonaldization of Europe.

I think tipping in Germany is quite established as well, not as a genuine expression of gratitude but because not doing it "looks bad".

I have a pet theory on why tipping remains popular in America. It goes something like this: Americans want the illusion of choice, even if they repeatedly make the same predictable choices. So, even if most people just add 15-20% (whatever the local norm is), they, in theory, have the ability to pay more or less, depending on the service. If the tip was factored into the price, the customer would lose that ability, even if they don’t actually use it very often, if at all.

Americans also use tipping as a status signal, despite it being socially grotesque.

Even here on HN we'll regularly witness people proudly proclaiming that they've tipped 50% or more for "good" service. Not content with showing off their status to whoever had the poor fortune to be dining with them, and the waiter/waitress that served the group, they also relish in the opportunity of soaking randoms online in their lavishness post-factum.

The amazing thing I’ve seen is tipping makes people feel better just like charity makes them feel better. The little aspect of having the power to treat someone with your funds is a nice ego boost.

Paying more in taxes or increasing the minimum wage doesn’t have the same effect, even though it would result in a more egalitarian society. The power to select who received the benefit from you is important.

Is there something wrong with tipping 50%? I didn’t realize my actions could be considered “socially grotesque”. Hospitality staff absolutely don’t mind extra money - I know from experience.

If you have the money to give away, perhaps use it more efficiently and give it to charity.

Deliberately overpaying is a bad thing when you're either feeding a company or gifting a stranger, neither of which need the money anywhere near as much.

People don't need to spend their money on the most optimal thing that benefits society. They can spend their money however they want. If they want to give it to a kind stranger who made their day better, who are you to tell them not to. I've had some awesome servers who have genuinely made me happier when I need it, screw it, I'll give them money to say thank you.

That's what the term "virtue signaling" is for. (or one of the things)

Sounds very similar to the stereotypical concept of American “freedom,” which has very little to do with maximizing the actual diversity of options one has to choose from.

My theory is that culturally enforced typing is self perpetuating due to a collective action problem. I would absolutely stop tipping, but all I'd be doing is screwing a waiter out of their pay.

The only way to end it, is if we all collectively decided to stop the practice so that waiters could negotiate a real wage.

No, we like it because it gets us better service, at least the way we define better. Europeans are fine with less attentive waiters, but Americans are not. There's no sinister or complicated sociological reason beyond that.

Tipping is out of control in The US. Everyday it seems we're being asked to tip in new situations where there never was such an expectation before. This is really just employers passing their staff costs on to customers.

Also, if you have a "tip" jar on the counter at a takeout joint or convenience store you're not asking for a tip, you're panhandling at work. I really don't appreciate the attempt to guilt me into paying extra for a gallon of milk or whatever.

In some parts of Asia, tipping isn't a thing. So much nicer than agonizing over a tip. Just charge what something is worth.

As a former waiter, I realize the importance of tips for them, but it seems like the system is broken.

I remember where I worked, waiters would avoid servicing a table where. They new the customer was a poor tipper and force the new guy to take their order.

It always seemed shitty.

In canada and there is a restaurant near me that doesn't prompt for tip on the machine when paying - i go there more often the other places for this reason.

How close is legislation to make restaurants pay minimum wages before tip? If it’s not close, why?

It seems that would solve a lot of the problems surrounding tipping and the employee situation in restaurants in general.

It's already the case in several places.

The people most opposed to that legislation are the bar/waitstaff. Anecdotally, I know bartenders with take home pay close to engineers. They don't want tipping to go away.

Tipping isn't going away just because waitstaff make minimum wage. It's too ingrained in the culture. As evidence tipping still exists and hasn't declined in the areas where those laws are already in effect.

I'm sure there are bartenders making 6 figures, but according to the BLS, the 90th percentile make $40k with tips.

The median pay is $10. That's lower than minimum wage in a lot of places, so I doubt that many bartenders are against minimum wage before tips (none of the ones I know are).

I can see a reason why receivers of cash tips would not be honest with how much they earn, especially to the government.

I'm sure that makes a small difference, but I doubt it's enough to meaningfully change the conclusion.

1. The BLS knows this, so they get their data from multiple services--not just government agencies.

2. The IRS knows this, so are more likely to audit people who work in industries that receive tip income.

3. If the BLS numbers were vastly underestimating bartender income because of unreported cash tips, you would expect bartender income to have risen much faster than other similar low wage jobs over the last 20 years as cash has become less common. This hasn't happened.

every bartender and server i know vastly underreports their income - makes 80,000 a year canadian in reality but reports 50,000

For a server to underreport 40% of their income they would need to be making a good bit more than that in cash. Especially when you consider that they are making some money hourly as well.

I find it highly unlikely that a server is making anywhere near 60% or so of their tips in cash these days.

Maybe there are a few locations with that high of a mix of cash, but not enough for that to be anywhere near normal.

Tipping doesn’t go away because the baseline shifts. You just tip 0-10% for bad to good service instead of 15-25%.

The first 10-15% of “tip” in the US isn’t a thanks, it’s a mandatory tax on menu prices.

It would make sense if the tip were reduced when the minimum wage goes up, but it doesn't work that way, in at least two states I am familiar with (Washington and Oregon). Both of those states have minimum hourly cash wages for wait staff significantly above most states, yet the customary tipped amount is still ~20%.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped

Changing legislation happens over night, adjusting tipping culture should take longer. Can’t see how it’s a problem that wait staff make “too much” for a while (or rather - how the problem should be addressed otherwise).

The idea of a “secret” $120 price for a $100 dinner is pretty strange.

I wish we could get rid of tipping culture entirely. It is absurd that a business is allowed to pay less than minimum wage because they "make it up in tips". Also annoys me because I am never clear who I am punishing/rewarding with my tips.

I can't think of a good way to undo tipping culture though. Best thought I have had is to have something like a 60% tax rate on tips. So you can tip, but you should know that 3/5 of it is just going to the Feds. Might disincentivize tipping to the point that it dies out. Other obvious thing is to remove the ability for anyone to be paying less than minimum wage; that is absurd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXXPYxyn5mA brilliant dialogue about tipping from Tarantino's Reservoir Dogs. Steve Buscemi's character doesn't tip and a group of others try to convince him to do it

As a non-American, tipping makes me feel disgusting(Footnote). Tipping is about waiving money around so other human beings literally cater to my every whim, on demand. IF I deem their service appropriate, and IF I'm in the right mood, I might give them some of my money.

Or not, simply because.

It's a disgusting way that rich people lord it over poor people, and every time I experience it my skin crawls.

It's no surprise at all that rich people really like the idea of tipping, because it lets them flaunt their money, and people of lower classes will literally scramble to get some of it. What's the point in having a ton of money if other people aren't impressed/trying to impress you/make you happy.

(Footnote) I still always tip, because the staff need it to survive.

> Tipping is about waiving money around so other human beings literally cater to my every whim, on demand. IF I deem their service appropriate, and IF I'm in the right mood, I might give them some of my money.

The thing is, that’s isn’t even how it functions! It functions as a social norm with a very strong taboo against violating a customary minimum tip (often around 15-20% of the receipt).

I agree with your emotional reactions to people flaunting wealth. I also tip 25+% because I can afford to and I'm genuinely grateful for the services provided.

What makes restaurants and bars different from other service industry jobs? Like your local policeman, judge or border guard? Shouldn't those be tipped too? Or wait, isn't that a bribe?

My tip is paying a server at a restaurant to serve me.

My taxes pay for the state to protect me. Also, none of those things are in the service industry.

Does a retail store employee serve you when they spend a few minutes to find something for you? Do you tip them also?

How about a nursing assistant that changes your bedpans?

It gets even more hilarious when you try to tip the teachers of your children, or perhaps police officers and a judge. Strange how bribing workers for better service can be expected, unexpected, or just plain illegal, depending on their profession.

You don't tip them directly, you tip the Rotary Club or the local Police Officers Association.

Do you tip at McDonald's then?

My problem with tipping is that we’ve carved up a small section of America and said “for these employees, it’s the responsibility of the patrons to make sure the staff are paid”

Combine that with the fact that food value is a poor indicator of work. Someone who delivers a $100 bottle of wine should not be paid the same as someone who flips $100 worth of hamburgers.

And that section gets bigger and bigger every year. Tip for drivers, delivery, movers, cashiers, barbers, doormen.

But not the janitors, nursing assistants, cooks, non food establishment cashiers, retail workers, etc.

Was watching The Petrified Forest, a 1936 film starring Humphrey Bogart, and part of it takes place in a diner, and on the wall is a sign:

    Tipping is un-American

    Keep your change

So the idea was alive in some sense even into the 30s.

I was surprised when a Romanian friend told me tips were common in hospitals over there. The national healthcare system was "free", but a surgery might still cost a couple hundred in gifts to the surgeon, anesthesiologist, etc. A couple bucks to the nurses that check in on you during your stay.

Good luck getting your bedding changed regularly if you're in a coma and don't have a family member around to dispense tips in your behalf.

Sample size of 1 is pretty small. Anyone else from the region able to corroborate? Sometimes it is good to get a 2nd opinion.

I have heard about this from Romanian friends as well. 30-50 lei/day seemed about average (€6-10); for comparison, a decent fast food meal would be 10 lei and monthly salaries are on the order of 4000 lei.

I've heard of the same system in Kenya, only it's called corruption.

Customers directly paying employees wages is one of the most bizarre things about America.

*giving

Unfortunately tipping is becoming more and more common in the Netherlands. Seems to be blowing (back?) over from the States. I wish places would just charge higher prices and pay decent wages and keep things simple.

A lot has to do with the blending of tourist-only places with more local places. In some countries, tourists typically tip, locals don't. But if you are a local and visit a touristy place, you'll see the tip expectation, and then this starts to permeate the culture.

In Denmark, I've had the waitress press "nej" to the tip on the card terminal once I brought out a Danish credit card. "Sorry, I didn't realise you were local."

It is? I haven't tipped in years, whereas I did in the 1990s. Maybe because I never pay with cash anymore. Then it was common to round up to the next multiple of 5. Even so, I never have had wait staff asking for a tip.

I don't tip and never will.

I hope you don't use any services where tipping is expected. Otherwise, you're just rude and taking advantage of people.

That goes to the heart of this argument: whose responsibility is it that the waiter is paid an acceptable wage, the patron or the manager?

You can argue about how the system should work until you are blue in the face, but the fact is that if you show up at a restaurant and don’t tip, then you are making your waiter have a bad day.

I would like to set the expectation now that I expect to be compensated 15% of your hourly wage every time you read one of my HN comments.

I assure you that I will have a bad day if you visit HN and read one of my comments without paying.

You can argue that HN should be free to read until you are blue in the face, but the fact is that if you show up in this thread and read my comment and don't pay me, then you are making me have a bad day.

You can like to set any expectation you want, but the expectation to tip waiters is an actual, real expectation and not some kind of fabrication for a thought experiment.

You could also argue that “driving on the right side of the road” is nothing more than an American social convention and choose to ignore it. Let’s face it—there is no logical justification for our society to choose driving on the right side of the road, versus the left.

Driving on the right side of the road in the US is the law, not a social convention.

Their employer will make up their wage. You don't work at Red Robin for a living.

The employer will only make up their wage to minimum. Ask any waiter whose base rate is below minimum how this works.

The problem is that this is only done when the base wage + tips over a period falls below minimum wage. So it’s less likely that the employer will make up the difference, and more likely that other people around who are following social conventions will make up the difference, and the waiter will simply earn less money on days when you show up, and you will pay less money for food, because your food is partially subsidized by people who tip.

Waiters wants tipping to stay since they make way more than typical unskilled workers with tips. Which is why you shouldn't tip, they make more than they should already. The best way to make them demand proper wages is to stop tipping until their wages are in line with typical for their kind of work.

> The best way to make them demand proper wages is to stop tipping until their wages are in line with typical for their kind of work.

Perhaps that would work if everyone did it. This would require a lot of organization, some kind of massive anti-tipping movement across our entire society, in order for it to work.

In the absence of such a social movement, the actual effect of not tipping is that you benefit and your waiter suffers. So, I guess the question is—are your actions to not tip waiters coordinated with a movement of other people with the goal of achieving change? Or are you simply cheap, and looking for a way to feel good about it?

I don't live in the US, I am not talking about individual efforts. I am talking about how to end the shitty system you have in the US.

Service charges are common in many countries.

That poor suffering waiter is free to choose any other job where he/she gets paid more. Like any other worker hating his/her job.

And if lots waiters quit their jobs, the wages will rise very quickly.

I know I hate to be "that guy" but I've worked at restaurants with waiters. Half the time they are college kids or drug addicts. Or frankly have 0 skills whatsoever.

Regardless, not tipping is my statement of "go work in a factory if you hate minimum wage. plenty of people do it, so can you." And women especially cannot say they can't do that work. I've worked in a factory as well, FILLED with minority groups of all ages, weight, gender, and and lifestyles. Just because you're a white girl "destined for more" doesn't mean you can't ship digornios while you make ends meet.

Is it fair to say the waitstaff at Red Robin don't deserve to make a living because you said so? Usually they earn a living. If you don’t tip 20%, you’re cheap and should eat at home. It doesn’t start by you ruining a server’s day by acting different than 95% of the customers in the establishment.

I do eat at home. I only go out to eat with people when that comes up. However, I despise restaurant and tipping culture altogether. I don't get why the US can't just have a culture where we can't just get fast food. There is nothing wrong with it and you don't have to bother with tipping.

Employers are rude and taking advantage of people. A person paying what they are asked and stated to pay is not being rude and taking advantage of people.

When I was younger, there was tipping for waiters. Now, if someone hands you a drink, they swivel an iPad around and present an option for a 25% tip.

The system is unjust, and you are paying less than what is expected of you, and you benefit from this because your meals are partially subsidized by people around you who are tipping, so you benefit and others suffer by your decision.

While I do tip waiters since that is the norm, I don’t tip others. I also don’t purchase food delivery since the cost to quality ratio is ridiculously high to me, especially considering the tips people now expect.

But the system is unjust because people keep rewarding those who make the system unjust. Mainly employers and the tip receivers who like to evade taxes. Both of these can be fixed by greatly increasing minimum wages or implementing a universal basic income.

I don’t think low-paid workers receiving cash tips should be paying much in taxes to begin with.

Instead, I think the system should require me and others like me to pay more in taxes.

Evading taxes with cash tips for food service workers is not the way to accomplish that. That is accomplished with marginal income tax rates.

> Evading taxes with cash tips for food service workers is not the way to accomplish that.

I can only choose among the options I am given, and the ideal system is not one of them. I can either choose to tip someone, and maybe they don’t pay taxes on it, which increases the tax burden for everyone else, or I can choose not to tip someone, which means that person suffers just for the unfortunate coincidence that I am their customer.

Let’s say that the normal tip is $5. If I choose to tip someone and they don’t pay taxes, perhaps their marginal tax rate is 12% and this is 60¢ in lost tax revenue.

Given a choice between “60¢ in federal tax revenue” or “$5 in income for a low-wage worker”, the correct moral choice becomes stark clear, in my mind.

The choice in your example is between $4.40 in income or $5 in income, unless I’m missing something.

Also, above you wrote that someone that doesn’t tip is being subsidized by those who do tip. Isn’t that the same with evading taxes? Why should certain lower paid jobs have to pay taxes and subsidize those in food service because they have the ability to evade taxes?

The incentives get even more screwed up when the tip receivers start advocating against non tipped wages.

> The choice in your example is between $4.40 in income or $5 in income, unless I’m missing something.

If I do tip, the person I tip gets $5 and evades paying 60¢ in taxes. If I don’t tip, that person gets $0, and presumably I get to spend that $5 on something else and the taxes will be paid.

> Also, above you wrote that someone that doesn’t tip is being subsidized by those who do tip. Isn’t that the same with evading taxes?

Yes, it is the same, but the numbers are different and the parties who benefit are different.

- If a worker earning tips doesn’t pay 60¢ in taxes, then that’s like the worker being subsidized 60¢ by everyone who does pay taxes.

- If I don’t pay a worker $5 in tips, then that’s like me being subsidized $5 by everyone who does pay tips.

I am fairly certain that the marginal utility of $5 is higher to the person I am tipping than it is to me, and the societal cost is lower, and it’s what’s expected of me. Now, why I don’t just empty my wallet for everybody I see on the street is an entirely different discussion, but the morality of the choice to tip / not tip $5 when that is the expected amount seems pretty cut and dry from where I’m standing.

I’d also say that if I discovered that one of my friends refused to tip service workers, I’d definitely file that information away in my brain as evidence that this “friend” is untrustworthy, of poor moral character, and that I may also risk embarrassment by associating with them.

Conversely, the decision to tip perpetuates an unjust system that relieves employers of the duty to properly compensate their staff, thus throwing the responsibility on the people around you, for the purely selfish reason of conformity. If nobody tipped, ever, we would still have wait staff. The only way to break the cycle is to stop tipping.

> The only way to break the cycle is to stop tipping.

As a coordinated social movement, yes. However, if you are only an individual person making an individual choice to not tip, then you are making a purely selfish act to benefit from the unjust system.

>then you are making a purely selfish act to benefit from the unjust system

So what is the downside for that individual?

Being ridiculed and ostracized by their social circle for being cheap (assuming comfortable personal finances).

If a co-worker simply refuses to tip as a matter of "principle" I will simply defer from associating with that individual in restaurants/bars.

Well, not everyone, I wouldn't redicule or ostracize my social circle for not tipping.

I would actually say the employer is the one taking advantage of people, not the customer. They’re exploiting social pressure to get away with not paying staff a livable wage.

Another interesting reversal is that boy's clothes used to be pink, and girl's clothes used to be blue.. the opposite of what they are today.

I think I remember reading, some years ago, that although it was pink the past "boy pink" was darker than modern "girl pink" - somewhere closer to light red...

Even though I live in the fifth most round country in the world, I immediately guessed it was about skin color. I think lack of tipping and prejudice often come together. I observe the same thing here. Waiters with eastern accent get rude treatment.

What is a "round country"?

It apparently does mean something (TIL):

https://gciruelos.com/what-is-the-roundest-country.html

But not sure this is what GP was referring to

I'm guessing they might mean the literal roundness of the country, i.e. how close the geographic borders are to a circle.

Quick search suggests they might mean Poland.

Presumably an obese one.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-obes...

Just like in some parks you'll see signs "don't feed the birds," in Singapore at some places, you'll see signs "don't tip the waiters." In some cultures, it is considered rude if you tip.

Mandatory service charges are not the solution.

It's equally disgusting.

It just shows that business owners rely on a government controlled mandatory tipping system to pay its wages.

Always tip (in the United States) because your server often makes depression-era wages and sometimes, in some establishments, your server also has to split that tip with the kitchen staff. The people who create your dining experience will be underpaid for their irreplaceable time if you do not tip. Consider tipping 30% for breakfast because customers tend to sit for longer, resulting in lower customer turnover and fewer tips than other times of day.

That's because USA is broken.

I went from a tipping + starvation wages culture to a no tipping + living wage culture.

Soooooooooo much better.

Sadly the push to deunionize and deregulate and zero hour contracts.... is pushing things towards starvation wages here.

But the solution isn't tipping. The solution is to pay attention to complaints of worker abuse and the boycott such businesses.

If that causes the business to die, we're all better off without it in the long run.

Killing off non viable jobs is a mercy killing, it allows viable businesses to survive.

Racing to the bottom is a loss for all.

But why should I be forced to do what the employer should be doing in the first place ? Hear me out. I totally agree that waiters get paid like shit and their jobs are tough. I have sympathy for them but this culture of "oh poor waiters so we must tip" is basically encouraging bad practices. I would rather pay more for a meal while the waiter gets paid well by their employer. Why is it my job as a customer to worry about the waiter's financial well being ?

Lets do free market. Raise prices, charge more and pay your waiters more. If no one eats at your restaurant, you know your food was shitty. People pay big bucks for good food, always.

I choose to participate because I do not have the time or resources to make the necessary changes to labor laws and regulations.

There is much anti-tipping sentiment in this thread, but customers have information about the quality of service that restaurant managers do not, so the ability to leave a large tip, small tip, or no tip at all should improve service on average.

It improves service if people who look like you tip a lot. If people who look like you don’t tip, it makes it worse.

Or it breeds a horrific culture of obsequious, servile service, where you’re bothered every five minutes during your meal so that your server can ask if everything is still okay. I’ll take European style service any day of the week. Sure you have to get their attention when you need it, but they don’t rush you out and they only bother you when you want them to do so.

The waiter bothering you is not about trying to seem helpful in pursuit of more tips. It is because they want to nudge you to free up the table for the next customers. Sadly, this same culture of asking you every five minutes "Is everything OK/Can I get you something else" is spreading in Europe, because the business owner wants to boost turnover, ambience be damned.

The centuries-old concept of the intellectual cafe in Central Europe where you could order just a coffee and then spend two hours at the table talking with your peers, is now dying out: the proprietor wants you to drink your coffee quickly and then either order more or get out. Sometimes the business owner intentionally plays bad pop music loudly, so that it becomes uncomfortable to maintain a conversation in the long term.

As rent prices increase, I can imagine it’s the only possibility. Merchant A calculated they can earn $x from y customers in a hours, so they can afford rent accordingly. Merchant B calculates they can earn more than $x by increasing the number of customers, therefore merchant B offers to pay a higher rent. Now they have to make sure sufficient customers (or sufficient revenue per customer per hour) is being met to afford the rent.

Only solution would be to move to a place with lower rents, I think. Or start explicitly paying rent for your table at the cafe per unit of time, but that might be unsavory to most people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-caf%C3%A9

Customers care about the whole package -- the location, the hours, the queue, the decor, the food, the music, the crowd. If they like it, they come back. If not, not. That's a 100% effect.

The manager needs to control all of this. If they hire good waiters, you will enjoy good service. But you can't pick yours, and I don't think what you leave at the end is a particularly big lever for affecting the service you've already had.

If you want me to rate the waiter or service just leave a 1/5 scale and a pen on the table. I'm sure the numbers are also a lot more useful as they aren't affected by how generous of a tipper the patron is.

I find anti-tipping crusaders amusing. If you don’t want to tip, don’t tip. Simple.

Oh wait, I’ve got to listen to your 20 minute rant about inequality and racism and sexism and the violence inherent in the system because you don’t want ME to tip.

Tipping isn't the problem here. It's about establishing baseline pay. Restaurant staff shouldn't be paid lower than minimum wage, which is already pretty low and be expected to make it up with tips.

If an employer and employee agree on a wage rate, I don't think it's the government's business to intervene, regardless of the level. If you think someone is being underpaid at wage x, create a comparable job paying more than x.

We're not even discussing the minimum wage here; it already is a thing whether you agree with it or not. The question is whether there should be two different rates for positions that are customarily tipped, thus decreasing price transparency and shifting the responsibility of paying the employees from the employer to the customer.

This is a classic argument but it doesn't hold when one needs to work for their basic needs in order to survive (food, clothing, shelter, healthcare).

If basic needs are gauranteed in some way for everyone, then yes, you don't need a minimum wage and can work for whatever wage rate you want.

Well, I think the biggest problem here is that you’ve mischaracterized anti-tipping crusaders as people who don’t want to tip.

If you don’t want to listen to people complain about injustices, then surround yourself with people who just don’t care. You might not be able to go to dinner with people who used to work as waiters, so be sure to remove those people from your friend group.

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