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Comment by asciident | Hacker News Reader

Personally I don't enjoy the dine-in experience that much. It takes an additional hour of time for long meals, mostly just sitting browsing through my phone, or 15-20 minutes for short meals, again browsing through my phone. I don't like the tipping system, feeling pressured to order drinks, or the whole credit card payment ritual. I hope you're right and that we see delivery-focused restaurants in low cost areas with sustainable packaging, so we can enjoy higher-end food at home besides pizza and chinese.

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I assume you are dining out alone? Or are you just ignoring your dining companion(s)? I agree dining out alone takes some getting used to, I would normally pony up to the bar and chat with the bartender or other patrons when dining alone.

Yes dining alone, especially on business travel. I just want to eat my entree and go to the hotel. Dining with a group is totally fine as an experience. Dining with a partner is still a bit of a wait if it's someone you're very familiar with. I'd rather have a 1:1 conversation in a quiet private place with a coffee or drink.

> or the whole credit card payment ritual

Huh?

Probably:

Wait for the check.

Get the check, attach a credit card to it.

Wait for the wait staff to return and get it.

Wait for the wait staff to run the card.

Wait for the wait staff to return with your card.

Do some math for a tip, sign the receipt.

It’s also mildly concerning to leave your bare credit card (with pretty much everything they need to commit fraud with it) with a complete stranger.

Do you not have contactless, or chip-and-pin?

The waiter or waitress turns up with the bill, I glance at it, I tap my card, or if it's a larger sum insert it and type in my PIN.

Worst case scenario it's 30s.

I'm pretty sure that your agreement with your card company includes that you must not let anyone else touch the card, let alone take it away.

It's still very new here, and most places just don't do it the way that you all do elsewhere in the world. I think I got my first one last year? And I bank with one of the biggest banks.

Even then, we have just the chip, no PIN.

(There is a PIN for like, ATM transactions, but if I go to Europe, I still have to sign, even if they do the contactless thing. Folks (reasonably) almost never expect it, and have to go find a pen...)

A very, very few places offer it at the table. Most places I’ve been to in the last few years do not offer it.

Even at the counter, as a sibling mentions, a few places offer a chip, but no pin. Quite a few will still only have swipe readers.

Chips only came to America recently, and mobile card readers are kind of a novelty.

The last few times I went to a sit-down restaurant (Before March, when the hammer fell), it was still done that way.

I only got a completely contactless card... last month. October.

> I'm pretty sure that your agreement with your card company includes that you must not let anyone else touch the card, let alone take it away.

In the US this is the standard way restaurants work, and it is very strange when they do not work this way. At the low end there will sometimes be a cashier who accepts payment.

> It’s also mildly concerning to leave your bare credit card (with pretty much everything they need to commit fraud with it) with a complete stranger.

This actually happened to me at the Santa Clara Convention Center bar of all places.

If I had to guess, I'd say they were talking about (in most US restaurants)

- Ask for check -> waiter brings check -> put card in fold, wait ?? minutes for waiter to return to grab card -> wait ?? minutes for waiter to run card and return it -> sign receipt and leave.

On a busy night, this ritual could last 15-20 minutes.

To be fair, in some countries in Europe (and a small number of restaurants I've been to in the US), it's more like:

- ask for check -> waiter brings hand terminal to table -> swipe card, then leave

America is a weird place. They bring the bill. You put your credit card in the bill. A waiter comes and takes it then brings it back and after all that you have to enter the tip amount.

In Australia they bring the Eftpos machine to your table and I'm pretty sure it's illegal for them to touch your card.

it's really not such a big deal. if I'm in a hurry, I just give them the card and they come back with a receipt to sign. if there's any issue, I'm confident amex will be happy to process my chargeback.

I think this is more of a cultural thing than anything. if americans are in a rush, we get takeout or go somewhere that doesn't have full table service. I think the "credit card ritual" is usually just a way to show they are not rushing you out the door.

something to understand about america: in general the protections for ordinary folks are pretty bad, but the act of paying for a good/service is sacred. if you (or one of your employees) fuck over a customer, they have ample remedies against you.

> I just give them the card

Pretty sure you're explicitly not supposed to do this...

Doesn't it have everything needed to make online purchases printed on it? What stops the waiter or waitress using all the info on Amazon?

> What stops the waiter or waitress using all the info on Amazon?

Most people don’t want to go to jail after their fraudulent purchase is quickly flagged

It's hard to track down. They could just write down your credit card number, name, expiration, and security code. Then use it a month later, at which point you have already been to several restaurants and handed people your card many times. And you don't know if the card was taken in some other way like a online retail hack.

It’s not too difficult for the credit card companies to pin this down. Basic graph algorithms on their datasets of transactions detect this pretty quickly. And these are running constantly trying to detect fraud ASAP. Problematic businesses can lose their credit card privileges too.

Those algorithms can be very good at detecting fraudulent transactions. However, I'm unfamiliar with systems designed to isolate the origin of the fraud. It's not hard trace a stolen card number to a dump of cards sold on the dark web, or the identity of a person using it after the theft, but it is quite hard to figure out how that person came into possession of the card. My subjective impression is that first-party theft + usage of stolen payment credentials is rare--they're usually passed along (sold) to someone else.

In a single isolated incident then yes, it is difficult. However many thrives get greedy and don’t realize it’s fairly easy to identify the point of sale where fraudulent activity originated.

maybe there's something like this buried in the fine print, but I don't think anyone in the US worries about this. I certainly don't. the usual way a transaction goes is you hand the employee your card and they swipe it for you. in any case, it makes no difference whether you wait to get the receipt first for a meal. either way, you are handing them the card and they are swiping it outside your field of view.

credit card issuers heavily favor the customer in disputes. lots of people unknowingly make chargebacks in situations where it's actually not legal to do so. it still gets processed, the customer gets their money back, and the merchant eats a punitive fee.

What stops the waiter from putting sedatives in your food and then taking all the cash from your wallet when you pass out?

At a certain point you just have to trust that most people aren't trying to scam or rob you. The waiter is too busy putting in other orders and bussing tables to write down all your card details (and I guess social engineer your billing zip code?) I imagine most people who make their living from credit card fraud would rather not spend their days working in a restaurant.

> At a certain point you just have to trust that most people aren't trying to scam or rob you.

But... you don't have to just trust as you say... we already have technology that means you don't have to let them have your card at all.

Plus isn't taking the card away from you a lot slower even if it wasn't also less safe? What's the advantages?!

Fraud detection has gotten really good, the specific restaurant and even the waiter can be identified if they do this regularly.

> if there's any issue, I'm confident amex will be happy to process my chargeback.

It's not a huge deal if they run your card for the wrong amount, as you say it can be fixed by AMEX. But if they skim your card and start using it days/weeks later, it's hard to pin down where the fraud started. And you probably have to replace your card, and update the card for vendors that you use auto billpay with.

80% of all credit credit card fraud in the US happens at bars and restaurants, and it's because of that ritual. It's why I always pay with cash at restaurants and bars.

This sounds impossible given the industrial scale at which PoS malware and the likes operate.

Its not illegal, Its in the banks fine print that states that you will not allow another to control your card.

If you do that and it gets abused the bank wont cover you, you'll be liable to pay up whatever the abuse was.

That's not true and credit cards are one of the few cases where the fine print does not matter.

That's because by regulation you (the consumer) will not be liable for credit card fraud if they steal the number and other info and use it elsewhere. If they physically steal the card and use it elsewhere your max liability per regulation is $50.

Regardless of fine print these are the max limits of your loss. That's why nobody worries about it.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/unauthorized-credit-...

Can I ask why you dine in if you can take out the food?

Delivery means you are not even going out from your house, which can only make those browsing sessions while eating longer and more depressive.

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