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Comment by ethbr0 | Hacker News Reader

To preface, we're talking about people with jackasses-tendencies here. Normal, well-adjusted people don't like to make their colleagues feel bad.

But as you say, it's also been my experience that apology and... "ownership"(?) are two very different things in American (Southern) culture.

"I'm sorry I did X" seems to signal weakness and invite criticism, if people are already so inclined.

"I did X. It wasn't the best approach / it was wrong / etc" seems to be perceived as stronger, while also taking responsibility for the mistake.

My gut says bullies key to subconscious signs of weakness, and the former is interpreted as such. While the latter projects subconscious strength, even while communicating conscious guilt.

We're all just apes in the end.

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As a Canadian, I was quick to realize that the mere word "sorry" has a different meaning to some people down south. In Canada I'll just say it casually to mean a polite "hope I'm not troubling you" or "sorry that happened to you", and never thought of it as immediately declaring responsibility let alone fragility. But in the US, I've been pounced on for a casual use of that word, as if I'd announced failure and that I owed something to the other party.

So I much appreciate what you're saying here.

As a Canadian in a happy relationship with an American, we quickly realised the difference that you've pointed out. We also realised that I had a tinge of the stereotypical Canadian "sooorry" sound, so we ran with it. If it's a situation where one of us intends to express remorse for a situation occurring, we slightly intonate towards the "o" sound, and for situations where we're accepting blame, we edge towards the American "sarry" (again, over emphasized to get the point across). It's subtle, but it's worked well for us.

As (yet another) Canadian, I've used the same phonological distinction in my close relationships with Americans to great success. It's been surprising to me how much tension is eased by disambiguating the two senses!

In the UK you say sorry all the time. You usually don't mean it.

This is apparently called the “Sorry reflex”. I’ve recently learned that “sorry!” in London at least, can mean - “fuck off/you”. I would say sorry to someone bumping into me and not realise why but now I understand why.

>> A recent survey of more than 1,000 Brits found that that the average person says ‘sorry’ around eight times per day – and that one in eight people apologise up to 20 times a day.

“The readiness of the English to apologise for something they haven’t done is remarkable, and it is matched by an unwillingness to apologise for what they have done,” wrote Henry Hitchings in his aptly-titled Sorry!: The English and their Manners.

That's adorable.

As a Canadian, you're missing out on the other critical half of the 'sorry'.

You step on my foot. I look at you, and say "sorry", and pull my foot away. You abashedly also "sorry" and we move on.

Am I apologizing? Hardly! The full sentence is, "Sorry, did you just actually step on my foot, what the hell?" and your reply is "Sorry, yes, I did do that, didn't mean to, apologies". Then the problem is solved and we move on.

> But in the US, I've been pounced on for a casual use of that word, as if I'd announced failure and that I owed something to the other party.

It is precisely the opposite in circumstances like the above!

> Am I apologizing? Hardly! The full sentence is, "Sorry, did you just actually step on my foot, what the hell?"

At least in the UK, that's not the full sentence, or it could be, but only with a change in tone ('SOrrY?!') - to me it's more like 'Oops my foot was in your way I think, so sorry'. (Said of course before you have a chance to think 'no hang on, I wasn't in the way, you weren't looking, this isn't my fault'.)

Your interpretation is normal in Canada too.

Commonwealth of [apologetic] Nations..!

So basically an "excuse me what the fuck"?

No, an instinctive apology as though you were at fault, even though you (to a bystander, or in hindsight) obviously weren't. It's not sarcastic.

Yes, that's the gist of it - couched in more politeness, but the tone says it all. Perhaps lost on non-native English speakers, of course; but then, that's half the charm, the built in plausible deniability.

Are you from the pacific northwest by chance? My wife is and she will constantly apologize for things that are 100% the other person's fault. It really bugs me, especially because the other person will some times say, "oh it's ok" (as they are accepting her admission of guilt) and I usually say something like, "Honey, that wasn't your fault, you shouldn't be apologizing."

On the flip side, when someone runs in to me or steps on my foot or something, I'll usually just look at them, giving them an opportunity to politely say, "Sorry about that." My wife tells me that it is extremely rude when I do that, but that feels normal to me.

I'm really wondering if where we grew up is playing a big part here?

> I'm really wondering if where we grew up is playing a big part here?

I don't want to repeat it here, but I mentioned this in another part of the thread.

Half of my family is outside the United States, and I often use "sorry" in a similar context. For me it's cultural rather than regional because I'm in the southwest--and now that I think about it, I've never given much thought to people giving a non-apology "sorry." It could be there's a bit of a cultural mismatch here since there's an air force base nearby, and we often have people from the Commonwealth here (UK, Canada, Australia, etc).

I'm actually not sure what sort of answer that is now that I think about it.

Greek here. The only way we use "sorry" is "I have done something to hurt you and I apologize in earnest".

For lighter things, like bumping into you, we might say "sorry" (as in, the English word), which sounds more casual and not as severe.

Oregonian here. I joke that we're the Canadians of the United States.

"Sorry" in regular conversation is a social nicety, very different from a sincere apology, even though the sincere apology may incorporate that same word.

I feel the same way as you... also curious what others think on this topic.

As a Briton, I sympathise. It's easy to say and then feel foolish by the reaction of the counter-party - that you've made something bigger of it than it is, or that you've inadvertently (been considered to having had) admitted guilt to something serious!

'Sorry' to me ranges from 'Excuse me', through 'ha-ha we both reached for that/side-stepped in the same direction at the same time', all the way of course to the serious 'I regret and apologise for what I have done' that it (solely) means elsewhere.

On the flip side though, American's are constantly telling me that I'm 'so welcome' when they don't mean it (or perhaps because they're used to 'thank you' having similar infrequency and sincerity to 'sorry'?) - so I think we're even. :)

The American equivalent to the "sorry" you're used to is, at least in the Midwest, "oop" or sometimes more like "ope" depending on accent. It's more of an utterance than a word but it means the same thing.

I'm not denying it expressing the same, but I would precede my 'sorry' with the same utterance.

(And sometimes it's followed by an 'alright?', which is practically a C21 howdoyoudo.)

I've long missed the edit window but I can't help but comment to correct my 'Americans'.

As an American, I've often used "sorry" in the sense you are talking about, and normally it works out fine. Maybe it's a regional thing?

But there is also a difference between using "sorry" as an expression of sympathy when interacting with close relations, and public apologies.

> Maybe it's a regional thing?

I think so. I use "sorry" as a casual non-apology sometimes when I don't mean to trouble people for the same reasons as others up-thread.

It wasn't until I met my exgf when I realized that some people are perplexed by that. I said it in the context of "hope I'm not troubling you," and her immediate response was "why are you apologizing?"

Didn't help that I came back with "...I'm not?" because she insisted I was.

That said, my mother is Australian, so at least half of my upbringing is non-American, and I often don't give much thought to certain cultural discrepancies (even though I was born and raised in the US) because I have a hard enough time keeping my own straight. lol

Hmm. I have lived all my life in the United States. When I have been able to visit other countries, I have been in the habit of learning at least three verbal cues: "Please", "Thank you", and "Sorry".

The first two are often the same word or phrase, in asking for help or offering thanks. The third sound is usually when bumping into someone in a crowd, or in response to getting in someone's way. Or apologizing when it's taking a bit longer for me to understand a particular situation.

I have not traveled in Africa or Southeast Asia, so very likely that I am missing the point here. But I don't intend to take on the power to heal the whole world when I say "Sorry" with sincerity. I'm just trying to avoid becoming more of a problem.

> To preface, we're talking about people with jackasses-tendencies here. Normal, well-adjusted people don't like to make their colleagues feel bad.

Exactly this, and one of the things I eventually realised is you have to simply ignore the jackasses.

Realising that face to face these people are most likely not terribly formidable is certainly helpful but the main thing is to learn not to give a s### what they think regardless. This isn't to say you should ignore everyone, or become proud, but that you should recognise peoples' behaviour for what it is and respond appropriately, which might include ignoring it entirely.

> My gut says bullies key to subconscious signs of weakness, and the former is interpreted as such.

Without wanting to get too Homelander about it and, of course, I never would, but after a number of years of strength training it's always nice to know that if push came to shove you could probably snap the bullies in half with your bare hands. More seriously, being in physically good shape is highly underrated: it fundamentally changes who you are, and will change the way you think about difficult or challenging situations, making you more confident and capable of dealing with them. I can't really explain why this happens, but it certainly does - at least in my experience (one data point, I will grant you).

There are situations where it doesn't work to just ignore the jackasses. Though, yes, these people are jackasses and I tend to be going "Can you get therapy already and leave me the hell alone?" (or "Can you drop dead already, you asshole." if it goes on long enough/gets bad enough).

America is something of a bully culture, unfortunately. They tend to win and be glorified.

As opposed to where? I am not familiar with any cultures where the "nice guy" wins out over the aggressive "type A" personality who prioritizes winning over empathy. Even in very polite asian societies. It seems like it's just human instincts.

This is a very important distinction. "I did X" isn't seen often enough, in individuals and companies. Part of it is a perception that it invites litigation. I hate how it's rare to hear a company (or person) admit they made a mistake, or didn't take the best path.

Not doing this makes even well-intentioned organizations and people feel slimy and dishonest to me. I'm evidently in the minority.

My last employer (t50 retailer, oddly enough) was one of the first I've worked at that had a top to bottom culture encouraging that.

I think the biggest enabler was the response.

If someone said "I made a mistake and did X", the response was invariably "What are we going to do about it now?" or "How can we avoid doing it again?"

I guess part of it was a strong company identity and shared ownership. So it wasn't so much "You admitted a mistake" rather than "You admitted a mistake we all made (through you)".

It was weird, but I don't think I saw people get jumped on for admitting mistakes my entire time there.

Not starting with "I am sorry" looks like a good advice - framing matters. Start with description of what happened and how it went sideways, end up with regretting the harm caused - by the time you get there, you'll be perceived as a person who understands the situation and its implications, and is in control of it, and thus will be more inclined to accept the apology and move on.

I think it's quite a literal difference actually. Apologizing without further explanation can imply that you don't know what went wrong but that you accept responsibility anyway. You've literally volunteered for the role of scapegoat.

Your latter statement implies an observation of a cause and effect relationship. "It was wrong", especially if followed by "because..." shows that you know _why_ it was a mistake and that you'll be able to rectify it in the future.

It truly is a thing for people to feel anxious and upset and apologize without understanding what they did wrong, and it is an admission of weakness. In a better world, it wouldn't be pounced upon. But in this world, I'd recommend that people keep a cool head and focus on observations of consequences, not acceptance of blame.

As a former Southerner, I can confirm. The Southern United States is the most British in its social constructs.

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