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Comment by ImprobableTruth | Hacker News Reader

>The main challenge of refinement types is that arbitrary properties are very difficult to check in general.

While this is true, I'm not sure how constructive types don't face the very same issue. Ultimately, you will have to provide evidence for the required properties, with constructive types the proof is just (more or less) implicitly embedded into the datatype, which imo just makes dealing with these properties harder rather than easier.

In regards to the post by Hillel Wayne you've posted, I'm not sure what this statement

>This means that predicative data is easier to express at the cost of permitting representable invalid data. This is enough of a problem that we prefer constructive data whenever feasible.

is supposed to mean exactly. If your predicate makes some data invalid, it's just not representable in the refined type.

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> is supposed to mean exactly. If your predicate makes some data invalid, it's just not representable in the refined type.

Author here. It's representable; the type checker has to prove it never happens in practice. This requires very different techniques from typechecking constructive types. Liquid Haskell shells out to Z3, which can return "unknown" as an answer in addition to "sat" or "unsat".

(There's actually a fourth option, which is that Z3 runs forever, but I think LH does a bunch of clever design to avoid that case.)

You can also `assume` that refinements are satisfied without proving them, in which case they can be violated at runtime. This would be impossible if the invalid data was unrepresentable.

Other approaches to refinement types, such as the original ML paper [0], implemented them constructively and didn't have this problem.

[0]: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~fp/papers/pldi91.pdf

> While this is true, I'm not sure how constructive types don't face the very same issue.

Not sure if the author claims that constructive types do not face this issue.

On constructive types vs refinement types, there is a recent Reddit discussion on this topic,[1] prompted by Facebook’s use of Dependent Haskell to eliminate bugs.[2]

[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/jh7575/eliminating...

[2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10gSoVZ5yXY

>Not sure if the author claims that constructive types do not face this issue.

This might be true, but when they were making the case for constructive types they didn't mention it.

>On constructive types vs refinement types, there is a recent Reddit discussion on this topic

The discussions seems to be mostly dependent types vs refinement types, which I'd argue is a false dichotomy. I'd say that dependent types is a what makes refinement types actually powerful in the first place. It's also how most Coq specifications are written.

> This might be true, but when they were making the case for constructive types they didn't mention it.

Agree.

> The discussions seems to be mostly dependent types vs refinement types, which I'd argue is a false dichotomy.

You are right, I think I confused two notions:

1. constructive vs non-constructive reasoning.

2. intrinsic vs extrinsic types (aka Church vs Curry types[ 1]).

In general, intrinsic types are constructive (because Program-is-Proof due to Brouwer–Heyting–Kolmogorov and Curry–Howard and others).

But extrinsic types could also be constructive, esp. when the external static analyzer has access to the program, such as in refinement reflection [2] (as pointed out in the above Reddit comment thread).

[1]: https://lispcast.com/church-vs-curry-types/

[2]: https://ucsd-progsys.github.io/liquidhaskell-blog/2016/09/18...

Then I think the author is arguing for constructive proofs, which come naturally with intrinsic types, or at least with extrinsic analyzers accessing program structures; and arguing against non-constructive (extrinsic) types, or anything detached from implementation.

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