Comment by nv-vn | Hacker News Reader

Comment by nv-vn | Hacker News Reader

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I think this article is far too cynical. These demos show an early version of Flutter Web rather than a stable, production-ready system. I'm not sure how the author stumbled across Flutter Web and thought otherwise, but I think they largely missed the point here; in the very page they link to explaining "Flutter Web", all the content is preceded by a large warning stating that this is a beta and the bottom of the page talks all about use cases where Flutter doesn't make sense on the web [1].

It's important to take a step back here and remember that the web did not start as accessible, nor did any of the native desktop UI frameworks. The author suggests that the only way to "fix" Flutter Web is to throw it all away and start over, which is just patently false when comparing to the history of the competition. Not only would it be ridiculously easy to make Flutter generate semantic HTML without changing any of the core functionality or interface, but in fact HTML already features a widely-used solution for exactly the use case the OP focuses on [2].

The author also tries to take a stab at Flutter initially for attempting to replace HTML, but I think this is another misunderstanding of what Flutter is trying to accomplish. The goal is not to replace the web with something else, but instead streamline creating web apps (in much the same way as React, Vue, etc.) With that in mind, many of the criticisms stop making sense -- are people really expecting CSS restyling tricks and Vimium to work in modern web apps like Google Drive or Discord?

To take one (rather sneering) quote out of the authors playbook:

>To end I’d like to leave you with a quote from Dr. Ian Malcolm.

>Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.

[1] https://flutter.dev/web [2] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/A...

Author here, I'll try and write a response to your points.

Yes the post is cynical, I'm the first to admit that. The topic makes me angry because I think we should expect better of frameworks for the web. As a whole Flutter Web moves us in the wrong direction, towards a less open, less standardised, and less transparent web. On the point of accessibility, yes the web didn't start out accessible and in fact we are still struggling with this to this day. As such, a new technology that is a regression in terms of accessibility is a step backwards in 2020 and solid accessiiblity support should be a basic goal of any such technology.

Regarding aria roles, it might be possible to improve Flutter Web by using it but ironically the HTML it generates is so inscrutable that I find it hard to understand if that's a simple fix or a complete overhaul. The general idea of Flutter, to ship an exact pixel by pixel replication of the UI across all platforms, seems incompatible with the open and flexible nature of the web.

> are people really expecting CSS restyling tricks and Vimium to work in modern web apps like Google Drive or Discord?

Yes, that's the beauty of the web as an open and standardised platform after all. The fact the people can experience it in a way that best suites their needs, for accessibility reasons or otherwise, is amazing. Flutter Web is a clear regression in this regard.

> (...)is preceded by a large warning stating that this is a beta and(...)

I mentioned this quite early in the piece, but I am unsure if the issues with Flutter are so fundamental that it would be hard to fix without a complete overhaul or if in fact it would be possible at all. If Flutter Web leaves beta generating semantic and accessible HTML I'll be the first to applaud it, but it doesn't seem likely.

Thank you. Unbelievable how many people would rather no one try anything new at all.

This article and the responses show the worst of HN -- bad faith attacks, no attempt to give the benefit of the doubt, no engagement with the underlying vision, unwarranted pessimism.

Why not ask what niche this tech excels in, or what impact a refined version could have? Most projects fail -- that's obvious -- but how might this one succeed?

In short, why so much negativity? The more you default to these views, the likelier it is you and everyone around you will never accomplish anything.

This is the poison that is destroying Hacker News and likewise many startups before they have even been imagined.

> are people really expecting CSS restyling tricks and Vimium to work in modern web apps like Google Drive or Discord

What's the problem? Modern web browsers are already dumbed down, now you want web pages to be dumbed down too?

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