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Comment by amatecha | Hacker News Reader

Wait a second. "The fake letter was part of new skills being tested by the military as it hones its expertise for launching propaganda missions at home and abroad."

The Canadian military is launching propaganda missions in Canada? (Or at all, for that matter)? WTF?

"The Nova Scotia propaganda training comes as the Canadian Forces spools up its capabilities to conduct information warfare, influence operations and other deception missions aimed at populations overseas and, if necessary, the Canadian public."

Uhhhh... like.. hey you're saying the quiet part out loud, guys.

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Briant revealed on Monday the Canadian Forces spent more than $1 million in training its public affairs officers in skills to influence targeted populations.

Your personalized propaganda, brought to you by your own tax dollars.

I am Canadian and find such deceit sickening.

You'd rather they dropped bombs than drop leaflets? The level of naïveté here is bothersome.

Truth is the first casualty of war, and it's always been that way.

The Rwandan Genocide was entirely perpetuated with propaganda, and it's unwinding had to (and continues to) make to use propaganda.

The Russians and Chinese are actively engaged in campaigns right now inside and outside their borders, this is not a conspiracy theory it's reported on regular news outlets.

At very least it's something Western Military should have reasonable mastery of, like anything else.

Unconstrained competition inevitably turns into a spiral to the bottom. The purpose of ethics and mores is to put a constraint on competition.

I guess the question becomes: is it more important to you to be right, or to win? Consider both the short-term and long-term effects of your decision.

The catch here being that if you lose, you can go to your grave knowing that you were right. You'll still be dead though.

I have a problem with anyone who takes my money and uses it to drop bombs and deceitful leaflets on me. I fail to see how that is naive.

White propaganda is fine and even necessary at times. There was plenty of it by western countries during WWII and the Cold War.

It's that this propaganda contained false information on both the source and the details that is problematic. Black propaganda is wrong. We don't need it to win, and when it is exposed it undermines our credibility, which undermines our white propaganda and efforts to contrast our values with the values of our adversaries.

I take a similar stand with politicians. I'd rather vote for an honest person that I disagree with on a majority of issues than a dishonest one that shares my political party. For especially honest politicians I go out of my way to vote for them. Trust in government is paramount. The rest breeds corruption and eventual democratic decline.

Honest, successful. For a politician you can only pick one.

Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan are examples of politicians that I mostly disagree with their views but I've never regarded them as personally dishonest.

What about the whole war on drugs that Regan started?

That's what I meant by "personally" honest - their governments they led had all kinds of problems but I don't think that was caused by fundamental dishonesty by those individuals.

I thought Nixon started the war on drugs?

Yep, seems like it was Nixon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_drugs

Reagan secretly sold illegal weapons to Iran to fund bloody coups and death squads in South America. I’d say secretly committing treason is a pretty big lie.

Check out 'Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine' as a counter-example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan_Speaks_Out_Again...

Also worth noting is the October Surprise, where Reagan foiled negotiations with Iran to bring US hostages back, in order to help his election chances.

https://jacobinmag.com/2020/1/ronald-reagan-october-surprise...

Maybe. But if dishonesty works, it's because the populace as a whole rewards it by (re)electing the liar. IOW a lot of people prefer to be lied to. Don't confuse the disease with the symptoms.

"There was plenty of it by western countries during WWII and the Cold War."

There were also plenty of atrocities commited by western countries during WW2 and after. Napalm, atomic bombs on civilians, ...

And George Orwell based his 1984 of his experience working for the BBC in WW2, btw.

In other words, no, I don't see a valid need for propaganda in democratic societies.

And the role of the military should be to simply defend the societey, not influence them in a sneaky way.

> White propaganda is fine and even necessary at times.

That’s a remarkably low friction coefficient for a figurative slope

We live in an information environment that is wide open. With the internet, any of our enemies can launch psyops campaigns against us at almost no cost. In such an environment, their campaigns must at least be countered, or else we would be steamrolled.

That's a frequently broadcast message lately isn't it. :)

And you think the local military is your friend who has your best interests at heart?

>>"We don't need it to win, and when it is exposed it undermines our credibility, which undermines our white propaganda and efforts to contrast our values with the values of our adversaries."

Fair enough. Now, the only problem left is to determine who is "we".

It's pretty well defined in various parts of the Canadian Armed Forces' regulations, and in this document in particular: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/service...

> At all times and in all places, DND employees and CF members shall fulfil their commitments in a manner that best serves Canada, its people, its parliamentary democracy, DND and the CF

So from the CAF's point of view, "we" is "Canada, its people, its parliamentary democracy, the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces"

(sidenote: The Canadian military was recently renamed from "Canadian Forces" (CF) to "Canadian Armed Forces" (CAF), thus the differences in acronyms.)

I don't know. Don't take my comment too seriously, but if I was Canadian, I think these guys sending me fake administrative notes and filling the night with wolf sounds would qualify more like "them" than "we".

Propaganda never stops when a war does. If you would like a great documentary on this, look for Century of the Self [1]. It explains how Edward Bernays, nephew of Sigmund Freud, taught governments and companies how to control people in peace time. Apologies in advance, it is a black-and-white film.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s

Good recommendation.

I would add most of the stuff by Adam Curtis to this list. Been pretty eye opening for me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Curtis

'White propaganda is fine and even necessary at times' reads just like 'One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.'

> The Canadian military is launching propaganda missions in Canada? (Or at all, for that matter)? WTF?

Everyone with a little bit of sense knows that democracy is a façade.

Are you saying propaganda is incompatible with a democracy?

So this WW2 propaganda poster from the UK encouraging men to sign up for submarine service because their women will admire them means the UK isn't a democracy?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2606355/powerful-ww2-propaga...

Propaganda isn’t always all bad. It can be re-assuring messages during wartime, reminder that rationing X is helping Y, or that wearing a mask is preventing the spread of a disease.

Especially when we have groups trying to convince swathes of the population that public health matters are not public health matters, and that we're against each other rather than working together.

Unfortunately, that is the reality facing us right now.

Just to illustrate, “keep calm and carry on” is a propaganda

"Lets just say it moved me....TO A BIGGER HOUSE"

- Krusty The Clown

The military doesn't serve the public. Every person in the military serves the one above them, and the ones at the top serve the politicians as long as they keep getting money and being treated like they are the best people in existence.

... and the politicians serve the public. It's service all the way up.

> The Canadian military is launching propaganda missions in Canada

Yes, and the Canadian military is very good at it. The fact that your reaction upon reading on it is incredulity and denial is proof enough at how good they are.

Keep in mind that "propaganda" does not necessarily mean nefarious. Almost all countries use propaganda, and I'd argue that most corporations use it too.

Is there any law against the military or government running an operation like this?

Shouldn't there be?

I feel like if military personnel and politicians were told "If you try this kind of thing, for training purposes or otherwise, you will serve <X> years in prison" it would be a good deterrent. And I feel like such strong laws should exist.

Of course, their glorious propaganda machine needs funding you see. Great propaganda doesn't write itself!

I'm always reminded of the phrase - One persons propaganda, is another persons politics. Which if you look at political manifesto's by mainstream parties - does make for a very fine line depending upon how interpreted.

Not new that the Canadian government is using propaganda. Go look up on CBC "about-our-social-experiment" where they got caught red handed trying to push that all Canadians are white supremacists. Or how about CBC articles that are in Urdu saying Canadians are adopting and killing Indian/Pakistani children. If you try to use google translate or bing translate it will fail. Or how about the endless 'parents' articles about how it's sexual assault if you don't have consent to hug your own 5 year old child. How about 'dear white people' where the CBC clearly says that racism against white people is impossible.

Whoa there, settle down boomer. There's a difference between "real" propaganda vs what you're using loaded phrases to describe. You're free to be as right wing (or left) as you wish but this is hyperbole & exaggeration, and doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. Save your outrage for your local Facebook group not here.

>Whoa there, settle down boomer.

I'm a millennial. Out of curiosity why do you open with an insult?

>There's a difference between "real" propaganda vs what you're using loaded phrases to describe.

You're no true scotsman.

> You're free to be as right wing (or left) as you wish but this is hyperbole & exaggeration, and doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. Save your outrage for your local Facebook group not here.

So you insulted me. Then just disqualified my points as exaggeration without addressing anything and then said I'm not contributing to the discussion?

I'm sorry, how does pointing out your perceived racism against white people relate at all to this article? The words "white people" or "racism" or "Urdu" or "Pakistan" aren't referenced at all in the article and are personal opinions.

Don't take it as an insult, take it as a suggestion that you're not on topic. If you want to talk about how the world is out to get white people, that's fine for a different venue (lots of places on Facebook for instance) but let's stay on topic on Hacker News - and the article at hand.

Any Canadian should be well aware that the CBC is not a unified voice, and will publish a broad array of Canadian perspectives.

Propaganda is just old-school name for PR. All large organizations do PR (or propaganda).

> Propaganda is just old-school name for PR

“Marketing” might be more precise, though not originally in the context of business. Specifically, Propaganda fide, from which the term “propaganda” entered general usage, was the older name for the Vatican organization that is now the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples.

>hey you're saying the quiet part out loud

In some parts of the world it's folklore already.

I think it was more training them how to launch it, so they can better identify it domestically.

I know some guys in military intelligence in that neck of the woods, I doubt there was any malicious intent here.

Right, I'm sure the ones you know are "good guys". But they aren't going to refuse an order. Personally, I'd be asking them what they know about the NS shooter. Probably another one of their well-intentioned psyops gone awry.

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