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Comment by yawz | Hacker News Reader

I’m a beekeeper and every passing year it becomes harder to keep my colonies alive. I’m really glad that we’re taking this threat seriously, because we don’t need one more problem on our list of things that kill our bees.

While I’m at it, please allow me to remind everyone that there are thousands of solitary bee species in the world. They are the ones that go extinct or in real danger compared to our honey bees. There are many struggling beekeepers like me in the world, and we’re doing our best to keep our bees alive. But thousands of species are without keepers and they are dying. Please be gentle to the nature. Let them live.

(Edit: wondering how you can help, here's what I humbly suggested below in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24889023)

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I've read a number of articles describing the stressors on bee colonies, but I'm interested in your take - what do you see as the primary factors affecting your colonies?

I live in place where winters are harsh. Colonies need to be well-prepared to successfully overwinter. They are amazingly robust when they are healthy, but anything that affects this preparation can easily be deadly over a period of time.

There can be many reasons. The Varroa Mite [0] is one that we have to constantly fight against, these days. The mites don't kill the entire colony, but weakens it so much that the colony can't overwinter. Or there viruses [1] that deform the bees' wings that can debilitate the colony. There are also other problems that we don't see where I live, but other beekeepers have to fight, such as the Small Hive Beetle [2].

I suspect because of the ongoing wildfires and poor air quality in this region, one of my queens stopped laying eggs mid-summer, at a time when she normally lays 1,500-2,000 eggs every day. I had to replace her. I don't know if that colony is going to survive the winter.

Some other colonies had similar problems. Yesterday a beekeeper friend told me she lost a colony and she has another one on the brink of collapsing.

Then, we also don't know who is using what type of pesticides around here. Bees can forage anywhere in the 2-3 mile radius. It's near impossible for me to know what's going on in such a wide area.

It's a constant uphill battle.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varroa_destructor [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deformed_wing_virus [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_hive_beetle

I don't know much about bees but I just recently started following an Instagram account (@texasbeeworks) that earlier this year posted a video[1] of a bee with a Varroa Mite.

The video's caption:

"Alright, here is what I want everyone to know about ‘murder hornets’. Only one nest of Asian Giant Hornets has been found in North America and it was quickly eradicated. Right now, the nation’s top entomologists are watching the situation and beekeepers like myself are not worried. If these hornets become a serious problem for honeybees, we will find a solution to keep bees safe. ⁣⁣ ⁣⁣

If you really want something to be afraid of and if you want to know what keeps beekeepers awake at night, look closely at the bee in this video. You’ll see a dark, round speck on the side of her body. That, my friends, is something far more terrifying than these so-called ‘murder hornets’—it is a Varroa Mite. (Scroll through to see it up close.) The Varroa Mite is a parasitic mite that feeds on the fat bodies of bees and its decimating bee populations around the world.

At this point in time, Varroa Mites are a much greater threat to honeybee populations than Asian Giant Hornets and if they got the same attention in the press, maybe we would have a solution for them. Everyone now knows the term ‘murder hornet’ but the thing we should be talking about In the US is the Varroa Mite, a creature whose scientific name is literally ‘Varroa Destructor’.⁣⁣ ⁣

Please stop the murder hornet hype and please start talking about the thing that’s killing more honeybees in the US than anything else right now—varroa mites."

[1] https://www.instagram.com/p/B_03jhvnFt6/

Varroa is and has been my #1 problem for a while. I hate it. But I can't agree with this statement:

"If these hornets become a serious problem for honeybees, we will find a solution to keep bees safe."

It can easy be too late. Look at what's happening in Europe. They simply can't stop the hornets.

Of course it's more dramatic to show these huge insects. They are impressive and scary. Mites are small and look insignificant. They are not dramatic. They won't generate hype. I understand the frustration as a beekeeper, but don't let yet another problem become too big to reverse the tide on. It is obviously cheaper to deal with the hornets right now, hype or no hype.

Just like the US could have treated Coronavirus seriously early on and helped keep numbers down, but chose to do nothing and now it's everywhere and doing far more damage to the economy.

Don't let murder hornets become the bee's new Coronavirus equivalent. It sounds like they're already dealing with plenty of pandemic-like issues as it is.

To quote George W Bush, who actually took pandemics seriously, "A pandemic is a lot like a forest fire. If caught early it might be extinguished with limited damage. If allowed to smolder, undetected, it can grow to an inferno that can spread quickly beyond our ability to control it."

So this, but with murder hornets.

Also snakeheads, spotted lantern flies, [insert name of other costly free-trade pest here]

> the US could have treated Coronavirus seriously early on and helped keep numbers down

How?

There’s been many weeks where epidemiologist were sounding the alarms but the CDC had basically zero tests available. The whole world was getting infected and the US was flying blind

Or May be just look at what other Asian countries have done (outside of China) and look at what they did. It’s exactly everything the US did not do

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/sin...

We can't find a way to stop them + huge insects = unsolved problem

This seems contradictory to me as a beek. 5/16 holes as a mouse guard should also keep huge insects out of the hive. It also should be easy to create pheromone traps if it is true that the hornet's seek out the scent of other dead hornets.

On a side note, I see mites as a genetics issue. I would rather see commercial outfits using selection rather than treating with chemicals and shipping packages with weak genetics all over the US. Spearding weak genes is kind of the opposite of Darwin...

I wonder what would happen with a Queen excluder under the hive, so that the entrance required worker size or smaller?

Drone entry/exit and blockages would be an issue after a period presumably.

Yeah, I don't use pollen traps, propolis traps, nor queen excludes. I'm not sure how they would effect drones. I know drones can fit through 3/8 inch. I'm not sure what size the hornets can fit through. If they are the same size as cicada killers, I would guess 3/8 is too small for them.

Drones can’t fit through my excluders. Every so often I put a frame from the brood boxes above the excluder. Old frames or ones with lots of drone cells. I have to check back in a few days to let the drones out or they die and block the excluder. Workers try to pull them though and jam them in the holes.

I’m currently using some nice American made excluders and they are really nice. They are made of wire and are quite quite rigid.

Cool. I do everything really cheap - foundationless, treatment-free, no excluders, etc.

How do you manage varroa?

My method has got pretty cheap - oxalic acid is about as cheap as it gets for treatments.

I don't. The ones with the strong genetics survive and the weak die off. I try to buy bees with good genetics.

Why is this downvoted?

> Only one nest of Asian Giant Hornets has been found in North America and it was quickly eradicated. Right now, the nation’s top entomologists are watching the situation and beekeepers like myself are not worried.

I can't help but think of when we only had one covid case and people said not to worry.

I feel like there's a difference between...

> Right now the nation's top entomologists are watching the situation and beekeepers like myself are not worried.

... and ...

> It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.

Have you heard that certain pseudoscorpions might be of help against varroa mites? They seem to hunt them and would need to live in the beekeeping box as I understand.

There is a tiny bit of information on them in german Wikipedia [0] (automatic translation [1], let me know if I can help with translation). Wikipedia says that they can be found worldwide, so maybe they will be of help.

(Please note that under _no circumstances_ this was meant as encouragement to introduce new invasive species to your area!)

Here is more information: the page of the beekeeper researching pseudoscorpions and bee interactions is at [2], [3] is about a book he wrote, called "Instruction manual for species-appropriate husbandry of bees and pseudoscorpions". A comment in [3] also suggests that under ideal circumstances, these pseudoscorpions might be able to deal with a small hive beetle.

This poster [4] states that having pseudoscorpions in hives unfortunately had no influence on varroa numbers, though.

[0] (german) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BCcherskorpion

[1] (machine translation de-en): https://www.translatetheweb.com/?from=&to=en&dl=de&ref=trb&a...

[2] (german) https://beenature-project.com/epages/6aa71639-792d-4a95-9e8c...

[3] (german) https://bienen-nachrichten.de/2019/handlungsanleitung-f%C3%B...

[4] (PDF, english) http://apicultureconference2016.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/201...

This is very interesting. Thanks for the pointer. Much appreciated.

New Zealander here - a lot of people are using Oxalic acid and glycerine on paper strips and are getting great results here - me included.

The paper is a plasterboard jointing paper and 3-5 layers are sewn together and soaked in a solution of about 40% Oxalic acid, 60% glycerine. Used like conventional mite strips they need replacing more often but seem to work really well.

Randy Oliver has been trialing other delivery methods in California.

My hives are the best they have ever been this season, with a very strong start.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/

Putting in a plug for a startup working on solving the Varroa mite problem by zapping them with lasers - https://www.beecombplex.com/

Hasn’t officially launched yet, but the early trials are promising.

(Disclosure: I have advised the company)

Thanks, I appreciate the response.

Are things like the beetles and virus new introductions to the area, or is it just a confluence of factors that are hitting harder now?

I'd also heard (many years ago) that, while the colonies can collapse, the bees normally reproduce quickly enough that you don't see much of a net loss in colony counts year-over-year - how do you see that?

My impression is that the bee populations have been remarkably resilient year over year, but whenever I see this kind of stress-and-recovery cycle, I worry that there's a tipping point - many systems seem Fine under stress until they overwhelm their recovery mechanism and collapse catastrophically.

Not the OP, but here in New Zealand the issues are greatly exacerbated by hive overstocking, migrant beekeepers (eg a truck brings in 100 hives one day, and the additional extras in those hives are spread to local hives), poor beekeeping, American Foul Brood and a low sale price for honey.

In addition, do what you can to support bees. Here are some simple suggestions from Nat Geo.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/05/150524-bees-...

This is an example of typical modern thinking that believes we can solve problems such as global warming and bee extinction by doing individual actions. This is completely nonsense. Either we do this as a public policy or there is no solution.

Your comment is an example of typical programmer thinking that says "only a perfect solution is worth releasing".

I have been guilty of that error countless times.

An individual's actions will not solve a society's woes, but they don't need to. If they help a little bit where they are, they can be worth doing.

Furthermore, individuals trying to help does not preclude larger-scale solutions. The people attempting individual actions could even contribute to the larger-scale or policy-based solutions.

I am not advocating for a "perfect solution or nothing". I advocate for solutions based on public policy, even if they're partial. But I object to individual solutions, because they're no solution at all. It doesn't matter how many people do little actions, if there are a few big actors (say multinational corporations) exploiting and polluting the environment, the result is worse than zero! It is just like taking as aspirin to "help cure" a cancer that is destroying the body. And in fact focusing on doing these little things is a net negative, because it distracts from the big actions that need to be taken to fix an urgent problem.

This worldview discounts the political awareness that such actions can foster. Someone who replaced their crabgrass lawn with native meadow has a daily embodiment of their value system. When such a person hears about murder hornets, is this person somehow less likely to contact his/her representatives about the issue than the person who kept a typical lawn, in your assessment ? That's the only way I can see this as a net negative, rather than neutral or trivially positive.

Or, given that the described standpoint suggests I have enough attention for either planting a meadow lawn or supporting 'big action', why are you wasting it telling us about this, instead of naming names of the big actors to write to our representatives about and avoid electing representatives that hold a favorable position toward them ?

Nzen already responded to this pretty thoroughly.

I'll just add two points:

1) Individual good actions virtually never outweigh large-scale bad actions, but the world is actually worse off if individuals do not take those little positive actions. Little polluter + big polluter yields more pollution than big polluter.

2) Taking the small positive actions is actually a lot of what helps people work on the huge, difficult problems. Humans are more effective when our psychology is a unified self rather than in conflict with itself, and taking small, positive concrete steps helps us keep ourselves in alignment with our big-picture goals and ideals.

I guess both of those fit into the abstract observation that you're bifurcating - people don't have to choose between individual concrete actions and contributing to policy efforts and other high-level approaches.

By all means, if you see someone explicitly saying they choose one at the expense of the other, say something.

When they don't say that, though, don't assume that's what they're doing.

Individuals can make the problem get worse more slowly, which can buy time for public policy to come into effect.

Native solitary bees are going extinct and in danger largely because of being outcompeted by invasive European honeybees. They're not the only invasive hymenopteran established in the Nearctic, but thanks to human effort they are by far the most prolific.

It seems to me that beekeeping results in direct competition with solitary bees and other pollinating insects as well.

Can you give advice or direct us to where we could learn what we can do to actively help bee populations around us?

If you have access to gardens, you can plant bee-friendly flowering plants according to your region's climate.

You can learn about the wild bees in your region and understand what natural resources they thrive on. Some of them are so specialized that they can easily be threatened by the loss of habitat. Some of the bee "houses" can become great activities for children. For example kids can build Mason Bee houses and watch them attract bees.

Supporting local beekeepers and bee-friendly farmers.

By trying to keep an immaculate lawn or mosquito-free areas, most of us sacrifice the local insect population including various bees that are affected by those pesticides.

By spreading awareness, but also starting your own hive is a great hobby and it's quite affordable if you have the time. You don't even have to have them in your garden or balcony. You can speak to local farmers, and they can be happy to host your hive on their property. That's how I started.

> plant bee-friendly flowering plants according to your region's climate.

I have a bit of garden but in the middle of a residential district of a city. Do I have any chance to attract bees or is

> starting your own hive

the only way?

I have a good amount of bee-friendly flowers that are visited daily in the spring and summer by our local bee populations, it is very much “build it and they will come”.

If I had a bigger yard I would host a couple hives of my own, I love just sitting out in the flowers in the warmer weather and watching them forage.

Bumble bees may be an option? Smaller hives, less issues with neighbours and great to watch.

I have no issues with neighbours and have somewhere between 3 and 6 hives depending on how you count. This is in a backyard of a suburban section. Preemptive honeystrikes may have helped - I get 150-250kgs of honey that it’s no issue giving it away and that seems to generate good will.

As the others pointed out, they'll come. Urban beekeeping has become popular in recent years.

> the only way?

Not sure if I understand. I've also heard of schemes where you can sponsor a hive, but I've never tried it.

> Not sure if I understand

sorry I meant a continuation of your quote as part of of the question there: ie. "is starting your own hive the own only way?"

I've started to plant bee friendly flowers, but they haven't grown much. I'll continue again in spring.

They'll come.

You can still have mosquito free areas while being bee-friendly. BTI is a biological control that only targets mosquitoes.

Plant wildflowers.

What will happen when bees go extinct?

Edit: I don’t understand the vicious pointless downvotes over this question.

Not a beekeeper but it’s pretty easy to connect the dots from bee extinction to ecological collapse. No pollinators leads to decreased germination which leads to less food for the lower levels of the food chain and on and on

Bees aren't the only pollinators out there. Yes, they are super important, but others exist. https://www.zmescience.com/ecology/animals-ecology/incredibl...

Aren't the others also at risk?

That's a good point. We are not being bad to honey bees or bees alone. We are killing everything.

> Not a beekeeper but it’s pretty easy to connect the dots from bee extinction to ecological collapse.

How is that an easy connection? Your argument essentially says without bees then nature as we know it falls apart catastrophically - I am incredulous you could interpret this as obvious. Species go extinct all the time and yet Earth is still doing just fine, apart from the damage humans are doing to it.

> No pollinators

Bees are not the only pollinators

> leads to decreased germination

A decrease is not the same as elimination

> which leads to less food

A decrease is not the same as elimination

> for the lower levels of the food chain and on and on

Your argument is a about knock-on effects, which certainly exist. But you seem to think if any point in the chain breaks, it leads to ecological collapse. Why do you assume nature is so fragile? I am not a biologist and maybe bees are special or there is something I do not understand, but I certainly don't think it's an obvious conclusion.

Nature might endure what we throw at it, we might not. When people say that humans are ruining the planet, maybe a few people are actually worried about the rock, but most of us are worried about having an ecosystem compatible with our civilization.

You might want to investigate about the sparrows in china, quick version; a campaign to exterminate the sparrows to increase grain production ended up with famines.

You're making a leap from "collapse" to "elimination". Searching for "GDP collapse", the first result I get is referring to a global 4.3% predicted collapse for 2020. People seem to be taking that pretty hard.

Fair point. Thank you.

I'm pretty sure honey bees are relatively safe as long as there are beekeepers. As I noted above, there are thousands of solitary and/or wild bee species that are in real danger. They pollinate an important part of the plants. Their loss would probably trigger chain reactions that we should avoid.

Is that a real risk? I thought it was pretty straightforward to breed more of them. For now. The colony collapse problem is real, but I haven't heard any serious discussion of honeybees going extinct.

> but I haven't heard any serious discussion of honeybees going extinct.

In Europe it is..in fact it was the main-theme 3 years ago. And not just bees but insects overall...the honeybee was just the friendly looking ambassador for that message.

The number of hives in New Zealand has roughly doubled in 5 years - so much so that overstocking is a huge problem.

One small data point, but too many and too few are both bad. https://www.airborne.co.nz/pages/bee-keeping-statistics-new-...

Again it's NOT about just Honeybees:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_in_insect_populations

Honey bees haven’t existed in America before 1600, so I suppose we’ll be without one of the invasive species.

Bees overall are dying not just honeybees.

Peoples with brushes on trees and bushes...and for everything that doesn't make money and is dependent on bees will go extinct too (flowers, trees etc..). And now back to school.

We lose another beautiful creature. People quibbling over there being other pollinators are being quite dense.

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