those seem to be a minority thou
Disclaimer: I'm German/Brazilian who lived 10 years in US.
Bolsonaro endorsed the protests of a far right movement that literally wants to "return to military rule under Bolsonaro"
See also Paradox of Tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dictatorship_of_the_majorit...
https://edsitement.neh.gov/curricula/alexis-de-tocqueville-t...
Personally I'm still on the Tocqueville's side.
Please, add reference for that.
The democracy is working as usual in Brazil, nothing changed. No rights was taken away from the people and no riots or civil conflicts are worse than before. Look America, France and Germany where the social fabric is partially destroyed.
You don't know that he "ordered the country’s armed forces to commemorate the anniversary of the 1964 coup which brought the military to power."?
You don't know about his interference with justice and when Moro presented testimony about it Bolsonaro tweeted that he was "a traitor, a Juda"?
You don't know that "As Bolsonaro’s relationship with legislators and the courts has cooled, he has become increasingly dependent on a cadre of advisers in his government who are active or former military"?
You don't know that in a Facebook live he said “We have the armed forces at the people’s side: the side of order, democracy, liberty,”?
You really don't know any of this?
Tell me. if you can, when in France or Germany the President attended a far right rally where they hoped to return to the nazi period...
Edit: specially with a socket puppet:
user: notreallytrue created: 8 minutes ago
Is it true or not that Bolsonaro is against democracy and rallied against it or not?
Can you find a moment when French or German president said something like "the military must be back in power"?
The last time it happened in Europe was when nazi ruled, or when in Spain the fascist ruled, or when in Greece the fascists ruled etc. etc. I think the comparison is apt.
> user: notreallytrue created: 8 minutes ago
I know for a fact what happens to you when you go against far right movements, especially south american ones.
Better safe than sorry.
To compare the Brazilian Government with The Nazi Period, you are not making the Brazilian Government look bad, but you are making the Nazi Period look harmless. From my personal life (my family moved from what today is Poland to Brazil, around 40s). Today 80 years after, I feel safe to wear my Kippah in Sao Paulo, but I don't feel safe to do it in Paris or Berlin (city where I studied and lived).
Bolsonaro as person and citizen has his opinions and he is really vocative about that (which is bad, and populist), but it doesn't reflect on the Politics being made in the Country. As it should be in a democracy, the personal opinion of a President has almost 0 influence.
Never did.
I compared the military coups, which Bolsonaro is rooting for, undeniably, to the military government the nazi-fascists had over Germany and Italy and then Europe.
They came to power thanks to the military support.
As every far right movement usually does.
Bolsonaro is praising and rallying for a return of the military dictatorship.
He was there, in person, endorsing it.
> my family moved from what today is Poland to Brazil, around 40s
So did thousands of former SS officials who went to live there after WW2, protected and kept hidden.
Including Joseph Mengele.
> I feel safe to wear my Kippah in Sao Paulo, but I don't feel safe to do it in Paris or Berlin (city where I studied and lived)
Are you sure?
https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium-as-coronavirus-r...
As much as I respect feelings, they are just feelings.
Sao Pauol has a much higher crime rate and 10 to 15 times worse homicide rate than Berlin, you might feel safer, but you are not safer.
“I hope God continues to enlighten President Jair Bolsonaro because he has a Jew who is at the head of the Senate at his disadvantage, Jews are miserly. Jews are wicked and think only of their well-being.”
Said Bolsonaro's supporters when the first Jewish president of Brazilian Congress was nominated.
Have you seen supporters of Merkel or Macron write something like that?
Uncondemned?
Remember that Bolsonaro in Brazil controls the media, but he cannot hide that under his government
> And if two key elements had been missing – anti-Semitism and the use of the state apparatus, especially the police, to stifle the press and persecute political dissenters – and thus prevented us from characterizing Bolsonaro and his gang as fascists once and for all, that is no longer the case.
> 1. On its official website and its verified Twitter profile, the Brazilian Army recently honored and treated as a "martyr" Eduard Ernest Thilo Otto Maximilian von Westernhagen, a Nazi major who was decorated by Hitler and killed in Brazil by members of the Colina, a resistance group against the military dictatorship and its state terrorism.
> Bolsonaro’s Justice Minister Sérgio Moro – after being unmasked in the conspiracy against former President Lula and Brazilian democracy as a judge of Operation Lava Jato, which was denounced by The Intercept – decided to use the Federal Police to try to intimidate the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Glenn Greenwald, editor of the prestigious news site, and to persecute me over a conspiracy theory.
Moro is the same man that presented testimony for interference with justice by Bolsonaro that the president from his social account called "a traitor, a Juda"
Moro was chosen by Bolsonaro himself, exactly because he handled the operation "car wash" that illegally put Lula out of the competition.
If a man who obstructed justice to stop a former President to run for re-election is saying that the current President is interfering with justice, it is probably worse than we think.
Bolsonaro helped them too?
> Sao Pauol has a much higher crime rate and 10 to 15 times worse homicide rate than Berlin, you might feel safer, but you are not safer.
I don't know if you understood what I meant, but I'm Jewish and because of antisemitism, which we have back in cities like in Berlin or Paris, I don't feel there safe there as I felt in Sao Paulo.
> Have you seen supporters of Merkel or Macron write something like that?
You don't have idea about the CSU/CDU parties (parties from Merkel) in Germany. But again, no reference, "somebody said, bla bla", just the socket puppet in the internet saying.
You are trolling with a lot of "factoids" to support your agenda and to avoid being down-voted you created a socket puppet.
What make you angry are stuff like:
- https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/oct/10/j...
- https://www.businessinsider.com/bolsonaro-more-popular-ever-...
Fun fact IMO which makes the whole South American soup even more interesting and supports my argument that the Government Politics has nothing to do with his personal ideas: He was personally against this "monthly emergency aid payment", and it was mainly pushed by the opposition, but now he is being treated like Hero because of that and enjoying the popularity.
He's giving them medals now.
> I don't know if you understood what I meant, but I'm Jewish and because of antisemitism, which we have back in cities like in Berlin or Paris, I don't feel there safe there as I felt in Sao Paulo.
I don't know if you understood that it's your feeling, not a fact.
There are more nazi and nazi heirs living in Brazil than in the rest of the World.
If you feel safer in Sao Paulo than in Berlin, it means you are part of an elite that is not affected by Sao Paulo criminality.
“Massacre the Jews, God, hit them with your sword, for they have left God, they have left the nations. ... God, what you have done in World War II, you must do again, this is what we ask for in our prayers to you: Justice, justice, justice!”” Pastor Tupirani da Hora Lores shouted at dozens of congregants earlier this month at his Geracao Jesus Cristo church"
Have you got news of something like that in Berlin?
Did Bolsonaro said something about it?
> You don't idea about the CSU/CDU parties (party from Germany) in Germany. But again, no reference, just the socket puppet in the internet saying.
I sure have, I'm Italian, part of my family moved to Germany soon after the war and lived in Berlin myself.
Frau Merkel surely didn't ever support anti-semitic or anti democratic groups or movements.
Anyway CSU and CDU are two very different beasts, just putting them together shows that you are just trying to spew propaganda.
> You are trolling with a lot of "factoids" to support your agenda
I have no agenda other than stopping your BS about Bolsonaro the great democratic president.
He is not.
He is a dangerous man.
With dangerous ideas.
> What make you angry are stuff like:
LOL
No, it doesn't.
North Korea style propaganda doesn't affect me, sorry.
Dictators don’t encourage their people to be able to defend themselves.
It's patently clear that he'd go for a totalitarian takeover himself if he could. He just hasn't yet because he did not have the means to do so.
if the democracy there has eroded why he doesn't have the means to do so? What is blocking him to takeover? Case closed.
That his lies have been exposed.
Especially regarding the unlawful exclusion of Lua from presidential elections.
But he will try again, that's for sure.
Do you really think that previous dictatorship happened overnight?
Mussolini did the same thing, he knew very well guns were not going to opposition but to his supporters that used them to kill or oppress his opponents.
The rhetoric of "citizens that simply want to defend themselves" is an empty one.
Russia passed gun control legislation in 1929 coinciding with the beginning of Stalins rule.
Italy's current gun control laws date to the fascist period, notably the public safety act of 1931.
Cuba's gun laws are classified as highly restrictive.
How it looks in Brazil after the decree:
"Getting permission to buy a gun in Brazil still requires a lengthy process — including a mental health assessment and a criminal-background check — that can drag on for months. But shooting ranges and gun stores started to see an uptick in business, even before the new rules went into effect."
So you can have a gun at home, but no carry is permitted.
9 years after Fascism raised to power and abolished democracy in Italy.
BTW you are not reading it well, what the Royal Decree No. 773 of 1931 established was that production of arms had to be licensed by the regime and that armed military parade were abolished UNLESS EXPLICITLY AUTHORIZED
Guess who gave the authorizations?
Exactly! the fascist prefects!
After all fascism went to power by marching to Rome in a military armed parade...
https://www.france24.com/en/20190625-brazils-bolsonaro-revok...
The most notable exceptions are the US, Brazil, UK and Turkey - these four countries have one thing in common: far-right populist "strongmen" in power who are unable to find a line between the demands of medical/epidemiological expertise and their self interests.
On the contrary, it proves that US handled the crisis badly, worse than many other countries less developed and less rich.
Of course Belgium, with 11 million citizens (less than NY) and a population density of 385/km2 (USA is at 36) and headquarter of European political institutions had it worse
NY city death rate is in fact 1,960 deaths/million (2 times Belgium)
NY state is at 1,710/million
New Jersey 1,820/million
It's easy to win the stats game when you do not watch them closely
Of course you can scoff the numbers when you don't know that Belgium is counting any death happening in nursing homes (there are over 15 hundreds of them) as covid related, even the untested ones.
If you wanna talk about complexity, you should at least show that you can handle it.
Isn Boris Johnson who said “I must level with you, I must level with the British public, Many more families are going to lose loved ones before their time.” just to keep the business going?
I'm sorry but UK had it very bad under Johnson, it's an undeniable fact.
Huh? No you've got it backwards - the argument at the moment is the Johnson is being too careful to protect people at the expense of the economy - the opposite of what you've claimed.
https://www.ft.com/content/7bb3e4b5-7dc7-464d-904d-aee5f7eb4...
> Isn Boris Johnson who said “I must level with you, I must level with the British public, Many more families are going to lose loved ones before their time.” ...
Yes. Isn't that just a fact? More people did lose their loved ones. That happened all over the world.
> ... just to keep the business going?
No, again you're confused here - that quote was about enforcing new restrictions to protect people - closing more businesses - the opposite of what you've claimed.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/12/uk-moves-to-de...
Both of the arguments you made there were fundamentally mistaken and are actually evidence for the opposite of what you're claiming.
A variation on that argument, is that careful protection is only an option if the economy is simultaneously protected, by paying people and businesses cash, otherwise people desperate for income will not comply with lockdown directives.
We're seeing that being argued from Manchester right now: They want a national "circuit breaker" rather than local lockdown, because a national one is more likely to be accompanied by financial support, as well as a shorter "tier 3" lockdown in Manchester.
Not mentioned much, but hovering in the background, is a minority but significant number of people who aren't entitled to government financial support of any kind. Some as individuals (no recourse to public funds) and some as businesses (started business at a time that haven't shown figures yet by April, or were in an invest-and-spend phase so low/negative profit). In the absence of any government support, during lockdown they depend on volunteers for food and temporary non-eviction law to keep their homes, so they have a strong incentive to resist lockdown measures.
He failed very hard at both then.
That's the trade off every country is making: dangers of the virus Vs long term effects of response to the virus. It's a balancing act. What would you prefer, wanton destruction of everyone's livelihoods in overreaction? Not everyone is lucky enough to have a job that can be done from home, such as us on this site (typically). Every country is trying to avoid shuttering everything.
The quote from Johnson isn't talking about what you're inferring. It was a broad statement of what was going to happen (and it has, across the world): people will still die, in spite of the lockdown. It was a public address, not a policy statement.
It isn't purely the economics: I've had friends and relatives that have had significant effects to their health (including a death) because of being locked in their houses for months.
He literally said it himself when he recovered from COVID-19
> A few hours later, he received a positive test result, and the next day he made a video statement in which he said he was self-isolating, but would continue to work and lead Britain’s coronavirus response.
> But during the next nine days, as he worked in isolation in an apartment above his official Downing Street residence and office, his condition deteriorated, with persistent symptoms including a high temperature.
> Later, he said he had been in denial and continued to work despite feeling groggy and “pretty rough”, until doctors told him firmly to go to hospital.
Boris Johnson was forced to change attitude, but he didn't believe covid-19 was a life threatening disease.
> The quote from Johnson isn't talking about what you're inferring. It was a broad statement of what was going to happen
If he hadn't been in denial he could have acted sooner and save a lot of those people that instead died.
It's the PM responsibility and anybody else.
If we were talking about Italy, for example, I would tell you that 60% of the covid related deaths are a responsibility of Attilio Fontana, the president of Regional Council of Lombardy who left elderly to die in nursing homes while he was subcontracting the supply of medical equipment to his brother in law and when journalists found out he tried to repay the debt using his own money from a Swiss account (yes, he has secret money in Switzerland)
But in UK B.J. is the major responsible for the debacle.
This was all against the background of the government shutting down the country's economy in response to the virus. A torturous definition of "denial" if I've heard one.
I don't know what more I can say...
If you think it's not bad for you, you also think it's not bad for others
But maybe Johnson says things Johnson doesn't agree with.
I'm in my twenties and fit, and going by the vast majority of cases that means I'll have very mild symptoms. That doesn't prevent me being considerate how badly it affects others.
You're also completely ignoring the context that at that point the country had been locked down: you couldn't leave your house except to get supplies and 1 hour of exercise. Does that sound like the decision of a man that denied the gravity of Covid?
We've all seen the consequences of their choices
At one point they also talked about "letting the virus spread through the entire population and take it on the chin"
Either Johnson believed it or not, he said it and people reacted to it.
Was it a communication problem?
Maybe
Was it a grave mistake
Yes, it was
I'm not ignoring anything BTW, I stayed home 94 consecutive days in Italy, so please don't try to teach me what it looks like to take responsibility for the sake of your community.
Get over it, the empire has fallen, UK is the ghost of what it once was and it's run by incompetents.
I don't have to dislike Johnson to know he is wrong,the numbers alone are enough to judge his actions.
Johnson said himself that "covid has been a disaster for UK" and it has left "the worst confirmed death toll in Europe" anyway.
He failed at protecting people and at the same time at protecting the economy.
If that's the best UK can do, it's really not that good...
I don't think the US, Brazil, UK or Turkey explicitly realized this or anything (Sweden did; they're doing fine, and are basically over with it). But ultimately getting it over with is probably going to look better in the long term.
That are lives saved. The more knowledge we have about the disease the easier is to treat it. Also, that measure has extended the lives of all the people that would have died months ago.
Gaining time has a lot of value.
> Sweden did; they're doing fine, and are basically over with it
No. A second wave is starting in Sweden. And, the father of a colleague died of Covid19, that is not "doing fine".
Sweden has had mixed results because has applied non-strong measures. Most companies are working remotely and there are strong safety nets for people to stay home if they feel sick. Even with that, it has been far from perfect, and it is far from over.
This. For all the debate about the Swedish approach, Sweden isn't really any better -- or worse -- off than comparable countries.
The one thing that could improve the situation is social distancing for an extended period of time, in combination with contact tracing and compulsory quarantining of contagious individuals. In that regard, Sweden dropped the ball completely along with the rest of the EU, when the EU decided tourism was more important than containing the pandemic.
How is that relevant? Say "5500 people died" if you want to make a real point.
The only "evidence" that countries that did worse in the first wave do better now seems to come from counties that decided that reducing testing is the easiest way to make the numbers look good.
Unless there is a miraculous breakthrough in vaccines, which seems unlikely in current year, this disease will be with us for the rest of your life. Just like the flu. If it works like other corona viruses, it will burn through the population kill off the people who are susceptible to it, and remain with us forever, just like HCoV-OC43 probably did in 1889 with the "Russian flu" of that day[0]. Nobody worries about that now.
[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7252012/
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-05-15/corona...
Maybe we will live with strains of the virus forever, but that's not the problem. We have many diseases among us that are harmless in childhood and much worse later in live, but they are much more harmless both because people are exposed to them starting in early childhood, allowing them to build some immunity; and because vaccination is an option. That's a much more harmless situation than the initial outbreak ripping through a population that has never seen the virus.