Hacker News Reader

I can only speak for myself here, but COVID-19 has increased my awareness of the impact of flu season and I will endeavor to mitigate the risk of infecting others in the future. In the past, I hardly gave it a second thought—it never occurred to me that I could kill or harm someone by being careless (e.g. riding the metro to/from the climbing gym during flu season and indiscriminately spreading germs). Masks, giving people space, combining shopping trips, biking or driving, etc.—all are super easy ways to reduce potential harm to myself or others, so I’m more than happy to do these things as necessary going forward. There is no sense of fear or guilt, since I know I’ve done what I can reasonably do.

In that sense, I think comparing COVID-19 to the flu is helpful.

This is something I really worry about: that people are so risk averse and so invested in the COVID response that society is going to permanently become more cold, more closed off, and less human. 2020 life is no way to live long term, and I don’t even want to take a step in this direction. If I found out tomorrow that there would never be a cure or vaccine for COVID, I would just go back to living like I lived before.

People need to read history. History shows this isn't our first rodeo with a pandemic. History shows that social distancing works. History shows that society thrived after.

In fact, cities that didn't socially distance had things much worse and took longer to recover.

Humans are resilient creatures. We're not going to lose our social capabilities just because we're also evolved enough to be smart to stay safe for survival.

I disagree strongly with the notion that mitigating risk of harm to others via awareness and simple action somehow makes society less human. I live in DC, a notoriously cold and closed off city as far as social interaction goes. Mask usage (even outdoors) is close to 100% here. When I see someone wearing a mask, I’m filled with a sense of warmth and camaraderie—that person cares about me and others. Someone else may see the same scene and think, “look at all these petrified sheep”. I sort of understand, but I’d challenge those people to shift their perspective.

If kinship isn’t your thing but sober analytical thinking appeals to you, wearing a mask is a no-brainer: positive benefit with effectively zero cost (the only negative thing that can happen to you is that someone might think you’re a terrified dweeb, but they’d be wrong).

It goes far beyond masks. No hugging. No shaking hands. No singing. No bars. Masks and plexiglass for kids who are lucky enough to actually get school. Not having funerals for the dead. We can put up with these things in the short term to protect the vulnerable, and you’re right that people’s concern for others speaks well of them.

But the logic some people use to support these things veers into territory where it sounds like they would be willing to make (or demand) any sacrifice for literally any increase in safety. I worry about how that will play out long term.

But that’s just my fear. Hopefully it’s overblown (and it probably is).

>But the logic some people use to support these things veers into territory where it sounds like they would be willing to make (or demand) any sacrifice for literally any increase in safety. I worry about how that will play out long term.

Seems like you're strawmanning/shifting the goalposts, considering your initial comment says "I would just go back to living like I lived before", which would suggest you would take zero protective measures.

Yeah, I think that was an overstatement of my position and unnecessarily provocative.

I probably would mostly go back though. Overall, I’d rather accept a more dangerous world with normal human contact than continue the kind of things we’re doing now indefinitely. But I’m sure I’d be more cautious about visiting a nursing home than I was pre-Covid. I’d be a lot more likely to isolate at the first sign of a fever than I used to be. I’d wear a mask when I’m sick. But I’d probably stop avoiding gatherings, masking when I’m well etc.

I sure hope that sick people continue to wear masks once this is all over. It's basic human decency to avoid spreading germs - even the flu - to others, especially elders. This is the norm in Asia.

After COVID ends, I won't wear a mask if I'm healthy but I sure as hell will if I have a cough or fever.

Might be reasonable, but would you wear one all flu season just to make sure you don’t unwittingly infect someone while you’re asymptomatic? Might save a life.

If everybody comes out of this more careful about handwashing, I can’t argue that that’s bad. But I worry it’s going to go way past that.

I’m probably wrong though, judging by the number of people who already can’t be bothered with the one way aisles at the grocery store.

You can cough and sneeze into a mask if you want. I think it's disgusting.

More or less disgusting than coughing and sneezing all over everyone around you?

My elbow hasn't complained so far.

You just dump snot and mucus into your own elbow? What, like, onto the skin or does it just soak into the clothes you're wearing? For someone throwing around the word "disgusting" you're not exactly an exemplar.

You're joking, right?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/27/health/how-to-sneeze.html

Nope. I think sneezing into your elbow is pretty gross. You telling me it's better than your hand doesn't suddenly make it nice.

Of course it isn't nice. It's just the least bad option when other people are around.

If you know you have the flu (or COVID-19), surely you know you are likely contagious and can spread it to more vulnerable people. Yes, it is your fault and you deserve blame if you knowingly spread it to others through negligence. Stay home if you're sick.

I agree those who are symptomatic should stay home. But for COVID we go further and tell asymptomatic people to perform (flawed) transmission control measures. Where do we do that with Flu?

The point is if I don’t know I have COVID and spread it to Grandma at the grocery store, in your eyes I’ve killed Grandma. I wonder why we don’t apply that logic everywhere.

The influenza vaccine is a flawed transmission control measure and is the best we have available, same as masks. We do blame people who skip those, although it doesn't show on their faces like the absence of a mask does.

The spreadability of the flu is also much lower than that of COVID-19 (largely thanks to the vaccines), which is really why people never regarded masks as necessary for the flu.

I don't see the point. There are rules now, so not following them would indeed make it your fault if someone gets sick because of your actions that were not in accordance with the rules.

Because if I go out into the world and get infected with a disease, that’s one of the risks of living life, and we have always understood that. That’s why if you catch the flu nobody blames the man next to you at the grocery store.

For COVID we throw this out the window.

When you take the approach to its logical conclusion you end up in a very scary place.

> That’s why if you catch the flu nobody blames the man next to you at the grocery store.

I would if he wasn't sufficiently careful about it.

One of the risks of sex is venereal disease. I probably shouldn’t bother with condoms though, it’s just one of the risks of living life. Is this the same logic you are using, or am I misunderstanding you?

>Personally I find it fascinating that I was never told it was my fault if I gave someone the flu in the course of both of us living our normal lives, but if I go to a grocery store and an elderly person does too and they get COVID-19 from me (imagine in this hypothetical there is no doubt that I gave them the virus) then somehow it’s my fault and I’m guilty of any harm that befalls then.

You ignore an important factor. Those who are vulnerable to serious complications/death from influenza can and should be inoculated with the latest influenza vaccine. That significantly mitigates the risk for the vulnerable.

There is no corresponding vaccine for Sars-Cov2. As such, the similar group who are vulnerable can't mitigate the risk.

That's why I (and many others) are trying to be much more careful. I'd also add that while the IFR for those under 55 are quite low, they aren't zero.

Wear a mask and stay 6 feet away.