Comment by jfengel | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jfengel | Hacker News Reader

I'm 50 now, and this is going to be hard for me because I've got little practice in dealing with disability. Even now, I'm about to run a celebratory 50k rather than my usual yearly 42k marathon. I will never again break my best time, but it's my annual proof that I can still do this thing.

And yet it's coming. Bifocals are in my near future. I have very preliminary symptoms of prostate trouble. I'm not used to needing any kind of help for anything or having to take a pill every single day, but I need to get ready for that, because it's going to happen. Not today, not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of my life.

It could have happened at any point. I'm incredibly fortunate to be so healthy. I ate well-ish and exercised, but lots of people do more and become disabled through accident or less fortunate genetics. I think Cicero would agree that I've lived more or less nobly; I've done my best, or at least my pretty-good.

I'm not afraid of it being over, but I'm trying to figure out how to deal with "the same ills would befall him and all other old men". I don't expect acquired wisdom to suffice: I honestly don't think I've gotten any spectacular insights "reason and good judgement". As for the "old men [without whom] no state would have existed at all", I really don't think posterity is going to look kindly on us.

Posterity isn't really what I'm worried about. I just want to live a decent life, where "decent" has always been defined as being able to continue to do what I've always done. Doors will gradually close. There's a tee-shirt that they sell at marathons to the tune of "Some day I will not be able to do this. Today is not that day." At 50 I'm able to see the point at which today is that day. I've got a while to adjust to it, but the adjustment itself is uncomfortable, and Cicero's not really making me feel better.

You might want to check out the more poetically-sensible Seneca, who was born a little after his fellow Roman, Cicero, and wasn't particularly fond of him. Seneca too addresses the "growing old" topic quite often and incessantly in his (124 excellent) letters and other essays. Allow me to quote from his Letter 12 ("Visiting a childhood home"):

[quote]

"... Let us embrace old age and love it. It is full of pleasure if you know what use to make of it. Fruit is sweetest just before it spoils, boyhood most attractive as it is departing; when one is devoted to wine, it is the last drink that brings the most pleasure—the one that puts you under, giving the final push to inebriation. Every pleasure saves its greatest delights for its last moments. The most pleasurable time of life is on the downhill side, but before the drop-off . Even the time that stands at the very brink has its own pleasures, I believe. Or if not, then it has this instead: one no longer feels the need of any. How sweet it is to have worn out one’s desires and left them behind! ..."

<Skip the funny anecdote of a certain "Pacuvius, who used to hold funeral ceremonies for himself, with wine and the ritual meal" for brevity's sake.>

"The happiest person, the most untroubled possessor of himself, is the one who awaits the morrow without anxiety. Anyone who has said, “I have done living” rises profitably each morning, having gained one day."

[/quote]

Some more quotes from Seneca's letters here[+]. His Letter 26 is entirely about growing old.

PS: The English translation used to quote the above bits: Letters on Ethics [University of Chicago Press]

[+] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24400629

There's a lot to be said for the Stoics. The trick, I think, is that you have to begin it early. It's easy to skip the your-son-may-be-dead-in-the-morning when you're young and your son probably won't be dead. But if he dies, you can't pick up The Consolation of Philosophy and get sudden consolation. It avoids the unpleasant shift -- and perhaps just smoothes out the constant amount of unpleasantness over time.

Mix in a healthy dose of Buddhist 'life is in this very moment' and I think it's very possible to enjoy growing old, certain frailties notwithstanding.

On starting early, the Stoics imply what you say: it definitely plays to your advantage—the faults are not yet so deeply entrenched to the point that they're irreparable.

Agree on "no sudden consolation": Let's take Cicero himself, with all his treatises about how to bravely face death or pain, or how "the wise man is never unhappy", et al. When his daughter died unexpectedly, he was absolutely inconsolable (a normal reaction for any of us). His immediate response to suffering was to read: "At your house I read everything that anyone has ever written on the alleviation of sorrow," he wrote to a friend some three weeks after Tullia (his daughter) died, "but my grief defeats every consolation".

There was a post not long ago on here by a young man (32 iirc?) that had a terminal illness and was sharing his final thoughts. One idea stood out to me, he said that getting old is a privilege that not everyone has the opportunity to experience. It was a new perspective for me on aging, perhaps the sentiment can be meaningful to you as well.

Edmond Halley (the astronomer and polymath who studied Halley's Comet) made a similar observation in 1693 after compiling the first modern mortality table.

> [I]t may perhaps not be an unacceptable thing to infer from the same Tables, how unjustly we repine at the shortness of our Lives, and think our selves wronged if we attain not Old Age; whereas it appears hereby, that the one half of those that are born are dead in Seventeen years time, 1238 being in that time reduced to 616. So that instead of murmuring at what we call an untimely Death, we ought [...] to account it as a Blessing that we have survived, perhaps by many Years, that Period of Life, whereat the one half of the whole Race of Mankind does not arrive.

1. http://www.pierre-marteau.com/editions/1693-mortality.html

I remember this post very well. The thought about ageing being a privilege stuck with me too. If I recall correctly, the post was titled "Leukemia has won" … It immediately comes to mind now when I hear people in their 40s or even 30s complaining about their age.

hmm. that's exactly what stayed with me as well. Each birthday is another victory. You made it another year. some don't. rejoice.

[1] I believe this is the one you're referencing from Elliot Dallen. It's a very insightful and beautiful post. And the reason I now read articles referencing old age, which once didn't register with me as much.

  "Nobody should lament getting one year older, another grey hair or a wrinkle. Instead, be pleased that you’ve made it." - Elliot Dallen

1 - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/07/termin...

I wish he wouldn't underplay it. I don't care about gray hair and wrinkles. I care about joint pain, friends dying, and eventually an inability to even take care of myself. Better than dying young? Surely. But it's harder than just being pleased despite cosmetic defects.

It's worth remembering here, when picturing it as a comparison or tradeoff, that there are a lot of ways to die young that are full of pain and suffering too...

My father's WW2 group had an 80% casualty rate. He didn't like growing old, but he was well aware it was a privilege far too many of his buddies didn't get.

The saying of two things in life being certain, death and taxes, implies death is tax free. Desires and aversions - like pay cheques and taxes - stoics yearned for freedom from both, and they appreciated end of life for freeing the soul from it's wantings and aversion for earthly desires and pain.

I believe this is the post that is being referred to, for those who are interested.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19203617

I'm 48, and have been a bit mid-life-crisis-y lately. One thing that's been bothering me is that the best times of my life are probably behind me. I don't mean the most productive, or the highest status, or whatever - I mean the most fun. I don't want to delight in the "consciousness of a life well spent and the memory of many deeds worthily performed". I want excitement, and adventure. My friends around me not reminiscing about the times we had, but HAVING THE TIMES right now. These things are getting more and more difficult to come by

I have been in the same situation. But the lack of adventure and excitement can be fixed if you make the effort. Problem is that you have less energy so it’s very tempting to spend the weekend sitting on a sofa instead of doing something.

My mom is a warning for me. She admits that she feels regret about not having done a lot of things when she was younger and now she can’t do them being 90 years old with a demented husband who needs constant care.

>I want excitement, and adventure

Oh you can! But it sounds like you would be giving up something in exchange?

One thing to consider is that the bar for "the best time ever" never gets lower. To defeat this, I concentrate on "good times frequently". I've found that shifting the goal from "best ever" to "reliably enjoyable" works well for me.

Physical health is fragile, but mental health can be robust for all or most of a long life. I think of Bertrand Russell.

I watched the US 2020 Election debate last night. At the risk of incensing lobbyists and dogmatic adherents of either side, let me say that it is humbling to see old people behave like fools.

Infirmity and death will come, but sometimes our Integrity shines at the right moments to inspire others.

Unfortunately with old age, mental health can be unexpectedly fragile too. Alzheimers, dementia, strokes and much more.

Some say that one of the first signs you are developing the wisdom that will make old age sweet is to be slow to judge.

Yes, so true. With that comes a detachment that insulates from so much angst, so you can focus on the things that benefit most from your attention.

Don’t worry about health problems in the future.

Be here and now. I’m of similar age, have health problems, and realize that no worrying about having health problems in advance would’ve made me any more prepared.

Am I dying? Yes. Aren’t we all? Yes. Does saying that make me feel better? No. Does that matter? Yes, so I’ll not worry about it.

> I don't expect acquired wisdom to suffice: I honestly don't think I've gotten any spectacular insights "reason and good judgement".

How very sad. When I crossed 50, I thought (and still do think) that the physical decline was disproportionately compensated for by the greater wisdom, the more-spontaneous kindness, and the clarity of self-knowledge. I would not trade that to go back 10 years; even less to go back 20 years.

I expect if you look at notes you might have taken a few decades ago, you'd see on the uncertainty on one hand, the excess certainty on the other and think to yourself, thank God I don't have to climb that mountain every day anymore! At least, I hope that will be your experience.

I have nothing to add other than that I enjoy your writing style

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