On Old Age
butwhatfor.substack.com
butwhatfor.substack.com
And yet it's coming. Bifocals are in my near future. I have very preliminary symptoms of prostate trouble. I'm not used to needing any kind of help for anything or having to take a pill every single day, but I need to get ready for that, because it's going to happen. Not today, not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of my life.
It could have happened at any point. I'm incredibly fortunate to be so healthy. I ate well-ish and exercised, but lots of people do more and become disabled through accident or less fortunate genetics. I think Cicero would agree that I've lived more or less nobly; I've done my best, or at least my pretty-good.
I'm not afraid of it being over, but I'm trying to figure out how to deal with "the same ills would befall him and all other old men". I don't expect acquired wisdom to suffice: I honestly don't think I've gotten any spectacular insights "reason and good judgement". As for the "old men [without whom] no state would have existed at all", I really don't think posterity is going to look kindly on us.
Posterity isn't really what I'm worried about. I just want to live a decent life, where "decent" has always been defined as being able to continue to do what I've always done. Doors will gradually close. There's a tee-shirt that they sell at marathons to the tune of "Some day I will not be able to do this. Today is not that day." At 50 I'm able to see the point at which today is that day. I've got a while to adjust to it, but the adjustment itself is uncomfortable, and Cicero's not really making me feel better.
> [I]t may perhaps not be an unacceptable thing to infer from the same Tables, how unjustly we repine at the shortness of our Lives, and think our selves wronged if we attain not Old Age; whereas it appears hereby, that the one half of those that are born are dead in Seventeen years time, 1238 being in that time reduced to 616. So that instead of murmuring at what we call an untimely Death, we ought [...] to account it as a Blessing that we have survived, perhaps by many Years, that Period of Life, whereat the one half of the whole Race of Mankind does not arrive.
1. http://www.pierre-marteau.com/editions/1693-mortality.html
"Nobody should lament getting one year older, another grey hair or a wrinkle. Instead, be pleased that you’ve made it." - Elliot Dallen
My mom is a warning for me. She admits that she feels regret about not having done a lot of things when she was younger and now she can’t do them being 90 years old with a demented husband who needs constant care.
Oh you can! But it sounds like you would be giving up something in exchange?
[quote]
"... Let us embrace old age and love it. It is full of pleasure if you know what use to make of it. Fruit is sweetest just before it spoils, boyhood most attractive as it is departing; when one is devoted to wine, it is the last drink that brings the most pleasure—the one that puts you under, giving the final push to inebriation. Every pleasure saves its greatest delights for its last moments. The most pleasurable time of life is on the downhill side, but before the drop-off . Even the time that stands at the very brink has its own pleasures, I believe. Or if not, then it has this instead: one no longer feels the need of any. How sweet it is to have worn out one’s desires and left them behind! ..."
<Skip the funny anecdote of a certain "Pacuvius, who used to hold funeral ceremonies for himself, with wine and the ritual meal" for brevity's sake.>
"The happiest person, the most untroubled possessor of himself, is the one who awaits the morrow without anxiety. Anyone who has said, “I have done living” rises profitably each morning, having gained one day."
[/quote]
Some more quotes from Seneca's letters here[+]. His Letter 26 is entirely about growing old.
PS: The English translation used to quote the above bits: Letters on Ethics [University of Chicago Press]
Agree on "no sudden consolation": Let's take Cicero himself, with all his treatises about how to bravely face death or pain, or how "the wise man is never unhappy", et al. When his daughter died unexpectedly, he was absolutely inconsolable (a normal reaction for any of us). His immediate response to suffering was to read: "At your house I read everything that anyone has ever written on the alleviation of sorrow," he wrote to a friend some three weeks after Tullia (his daughter) died, "but my grief defeats every consolation".
I watched the US 2020 Election debate last night. At the risk of incensing lobbyists and dogmatic adherents of either side, let me say that it is humbling to see old people behave like fools.
Infirmity and death will come, but sometimes our Integrity shines at the right moments to inspire others.
Be here and now. I’m of similar age, have health problems, and realize that no worrying about having health problems in advance would’ve made me any more prepared.
Am I dying? Yes. Aren’t we all? Yes. Does saying that make me feel better? No. Does that matter? Yes, so I’ll not worry about it.
How very sad. When I crossed 50, I thought (and still do think) that the physical decline was disproportionately compensated for by the greater wisdom, the more-spontaneous kindness, and the clarity of self-knowledge. I would not trade that to go back 10 years; even less to go back 20 years.
I expect if you look at notes you might have taken a few decades ago, you'd see on the uncertainty on one hand, the excess certainty on the other and think to yourself, thank God I don't have to climb that mountain every day anymore! At least, I hope that will be your experience.
Besides the "On Old Age", some recommended English translations of his works:
• On Duties — this volume is divided into three 'books'; the first 'book' covers Stoic ethics in highly compressed form. Recommended English translation: "Cicero On Duties (Cambridge Texts in the History of Political Thought)"; it also has very useful footnotes.
• Tusculan Disputations — horrendous name (more correctly called: "Discussions at my villa in Tusculum"), but excellent content. It covers five themes ("disputations"); two of them written when Cicero was grieving from the sudden death of his daughter. I suggest these two translations, which cover the five themes: (a) "On Life and Death" (Oxford World's Classics); translation by John Davie; – this covers the themes 1, 2, 5, and other essays; and (b) "Cicero Emotions", by Margaret Graver – this brilliant volume covers the 4th and 5th disputations, with unparalleled commentary by Graver.
Bonus: "On the Good Life" (Penguin Classics) also reads well. It has two parts from "On Duties", and a few essays by Cicero, including one on friendship.
Typo: "4th and 5th" --> "3rd and 4th" (1st, 2nd, and 5th are covered in "On Life and Death")
SENS[0] is a 501(c)(3) public charity directing and funding such research.
I can't remember where I heard this or what the exact wording is. But it's one of those sayings that reminds me to be wary of philosophies with ideals that happen to match my current situation.
Does getting wiser, calmer, and more mentally balanced constitute a mind decay?
Doesn't the fact that you no longer have to exert yourself as much as you did before so in fact you have a better rest and sleep better mean that your body is doing just fine (not looking "young" notwithstanding)?
I really wish I could believe your post though.
yeah but you die.
And some of those say you can personally validate that you are more than your body+brain while you are living. I’m not in the business of selling any particular approach to do that.
But entering into a downward cycle of negativity about aging isn’t going to do you, and those few still around willing to put up with you, any favors as you get older. If there is more to it than body+brain, and choosing to not confirm it to yourself leads you into negativity and misery as you age...well doesn’t that just sounds like you’re dumber than a door nail?
Irrelevant.
> If there is more to it than body+brain, and choosing to not confirm it to yourself leads you into negativity and misery as you age.
If.
> well doesn’t that just sounds like you’re dumber than a door nail?
Throwing insults right out of the gate just makes you sound like a cheap troll :) If you have an argument to make, just cut the innuendo and make your argument. How did you "personally validate that you are more than your body+brain"? I don't want to assume anything, maybe you have something original to say that doesn't involve meditation, psychedelic drugs and Deepak Chopra.
There's no reason we should accept the consequences of old age without a fight. Donate to SENS, or even better, dedicate your own work to extending human healthspan.
See also: The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant by CGP Grey — https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cZYNADOHhVY
EDIT: whoops, it was the 50th anniversary tour of 2016. They didn't do My Generation in Seattle in 2019.
(and I admit to having a morbid, in the main, achiral habit on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250512 )
But we remember him for his philosophies and writings (or his summaries of other’s philosophy for the more cynical), which did seem to have a impact on future generations.
On one hand, all men fall short of their ideal. But do you really think character qualities such as Cicero’s erase the positive influence he might have had despite them over the longer term?
I struggle with this and it’s a genuine question. On reading his biography I was put off on the man himself more or less, while at the same time his words seem to inspire.
A man's retch should exceed his grasp, or what's a-heaving for?
"The power which the strong have over the weak, the employer over the employed, the educated over the unlettered, the experienced over the confiding, even the clever over the silly -- the forbearing or inoffensive use of all this power or authority, or a total abstinence from it when the case admits it, will show the gentleman in a plain light." -- General Robert E. Lee
"The nobles would still be in charge if they'd cared more about fruits than about roots." -- Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte
[1] that is, for judging the ideal. Judging a messenger by the ideals they profess to aspire is a different matter.
“Be true to what you said on paper.” – Martin Luther King, Jr., April 3, 1968.
[2] compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23378137
I saw what you did there.
In his telling, the Catiline Conspiracy was a product of its time: Marius and Sulla showed the Roman aristocracy that if you just ignored the law and had popular support + an army, you could basically do whatever you want, and so that became the norm for the next generation.
At the time, Cicero was one of the two Consuls, the heads of state that were elected yearly by the senate. And Pompey, a charismatic and popular Roman general was in command of a large army and had just won some wars in the east. Cicero was afraid of what Pompey might do with all his popularity and legions (again, ambitious men taking what they wanted by flouting laws was all the rage).
So when Cicero learned of a (not very well-organized) coup was being organized by senator Catilina, he attempted to use it as a way to unite the Roman senate against treasonous behaviour.
Cicero convinced the senators, and Catilina was exiled, protesting that he'd been mistreated. But he went and joined the army of centurion Manlius, who was helping organize the rebellion.
The rebels then tried to get a Gallic tribe, the Allobroges, to join them, but were betrayed to the senate and letters they had sent were used by Cicero to convince them to sentence five of the conspirators to death without trial.
Julius Caesar, at this point just another politician, protested this "sentenced to death without trial" outcome loudly, seeing Cicero as an enemy of his own ambitions.
For the rest of his life, putting five men to death without trial would be brought to discredit Cicero again and again, including being used as an excuse to exile him.
@throwanem -- does that sound like a reasonable summary of the context of your comment?
And that is how I recall that period of time. It’s one of those situations where you let the reality of the situation deviate you from your ideals, I think.
@throwanem - have you ever read anything where he commented in hindsight that he still believed that he made the right choice? I’m newer to Roman history and sounds like you might have experience / background here.
I struggle with the same question you raised in your other comment, and find it often difficult to credit ideals which even their own strongest proponents prove unable to uphold when it seems to matter most.
>For to those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life every age is burdensome
Take the way things are done currently which you more or less accept as normal, e.g. the state demands part of your income with the threat of force if you don't comply. Fast-forward to a new age when taxes have been abolished since the invention and perfection of the matter compiler (think 'Diamond Age') and imagine reading about how the government enslaved the populace. You need to interpret written words in the context of the place and time they ware written, if you try to literally apply them to the current situation things go south pretty quickly.
I find the constant ranting about taxation here very trying, I frequent many financial and more "right-wing" forums, but HN is the only place I commonly see the taxation is theft argument made seriously on a regular basis.
I'd love to know why that is, but it appears to be one of life's great mysteries.
My mother's advice on this still stays with me: never look at your gross pay, and you'll be much, much happier.
It might help you understand that your rant is misplaced since my comparison only works because taxation is seen as something normal in current society. Had it been seen in the light you portray it the comparison would not hold.
However, I note that I didn't refer to HN as one of these "right-wing forums", rather I was speaking about financial news, which I would naively have expected to be more anti-taxation than a forum populated by people working on the fruits of a massive forty year defence project (the Internet/WWW).
Like, I personally disagree with you that taxation will be seen in those terms, but given that both of us will (probably) be dead before such a matter compiler exists, it's probably a moot point.
And by the way, my comment was not a rant (I don't think I've ever ranted on HN, to be honest, as tone doesn't come through well on the internet).
Maybe someday we'll meet in person, and you can actually listen to a rant of mine (normally entertaining, even if you disagree).
Anyway, taxation is liberty!
Most people treat taxation the same way they treat automobiles or software, in that as long as the features they do want are available for a price they're willing to pay, they don't worry much about also getting the rest of the bundle which they don't want.
On HN, one is more likely to find people who massage dotfiles and dependencies to get specifically what they want and not what they don't (if not necessarily more likely to find people who scratch build their car to contain only the features they wish?), and so one also is more likely to find people who wish to unbundle taxation.
No, I did not just turn a point about slavery into a rant that you have to pay taxes. I used taxes as an example of something which might be seen in a totally different light in some future society. I might as well have used the Indian caste system or some religious dogma but did not, instead I used something which everyone has experience with.
Also, lol, seriously? Is this Hacker News or is it Slashdot?
Epictetus, a Roman slave, probably crippled by his master.
I would also say look up James Bond Stockdale (yes that is really his name) - we was a POW in Vietnam for seven years. He refers to Epictetus and Stoic philosophy as the reason he survived with his mental health.
I’ll see if I can find a link to two papers of his that are public source
He has a couple other books and collections of writings. If you are looking for real world applications of Stoicism, there isn’t much of a better person.
The Christian religion in Europe got its start mainly with slaves and poor people. I am not familiar with the details of early Christianity in Rome, but I suspect there are likely major Christian saints who were in fact slaves.
Bilal, a slave who was one of the vanguard of Muslims, also has a pretty exalted rank. There were other slaves, mainly in the mystic track of Islam, that are also highly regarded for their “virtue” and apparent perfect peace with God (“happy”?).
The Human experience is ultimately an internal, subjective affair between the human and (perceived) Reality (aka God).
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/50040/50040-h/50040-h.html#c...
Given that doctrine in 516, it's no wonder the early christian church appealed mainly to slaves and poor people.
[1] St. Benedict is not fond of Sarabaites.
That, and how virtually every company loses tanks (mainly through power failure) and then says oops.
Speaking of failure, either Thiel and Brin are doing just that on the topic, or they are really good at keeping secrets.
Stoicism simply advocates an indifference to things outside of your control. You should not be perturbed by your emotions; your perceptions and reactions are the roots of your suffering. In our reality, and Cicero’s before, old age and death are inevitable. That does not mean we cannot attempt to prevent it or research a “solution” to it. It simply means in the interim our opinion of it should not perturb your inner peace (easier said than done!). The one thing you almost always have control over (forgiving biochemistry :D) are your opinions about things.
If that research was fruitful, then it _would_ be something in our control and the Stoic evaluation of it would change. Cicero‘s comments here are contextual and, I might add, beautiful.
Which is, of course, rubbish. That's not really how life works: rewards rarely follow your efforts to live a good life. There are often no rewards at all; a life of diligent savings can disappear in an instant, physical fitness can end with cancer, faithfulness can end in bitter disappointment. Attempting to 'optimize' your life, your finances, your career often put you in places you never wanted to be.
The Buddhists come closer to what life is really about: life is not a journey, it's a dance. And you can dance anytime; old age can be joyous anytime you choose to dance--you don't need a 'good life' preceding it to make it good. Or, TL;DR: All you ever have in life is this one moment, right now.
https://www.audiodharma.org/teacher/1/ https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gil+fronsdal
https://fiveinvitations.com/about-frank-ostaseski/ https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=frank+ostaseski
It's really odd of you saying that for Buddhism, life a "dance". This is really not what Buddhism is about. Sounds more like Nietzsche to me (an anti-buddhist). Buddhism is about virtue, the four noble truths and following the noble eight-fold path.
'old age is fine, if you lived a good life beforehand' - this truly rings true in Buddhism, as your actions in this life determines your place of rebirth in the next.
Alan Watts--who had a thing or two to say about Buddhism--disagrees with you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4
Cicero was a man who fought against the tribunes representing the vast majority of Roman citizens, and for the power of the idle class aristocracy which did not work.
He also was like an ancient embodiment of QAnon (which sees the US Democratic Party leadership as involved in a child sex conspiracy) - he accused populare aligned senators like Catiline of defiling the sacred Vestal virgins in Senate hearings.