> pro Taiwan bias in Wikipedia
Given Taiwan recognizes China but China doesn't recognize Taiwan, a statement of fact--that Taiwan is a de facto sovereign state--would be deemed "pro Taiwan" by Beijing.
Given Taiwan recognizes China but China doesn't recognize Taiwan, a statement of fact--that Taiwan is a de facto sovereign state--would be deemed "pro Taiwan" by Beijing.
There are forces that want to move away from that de jure reality. But the fact is that that move hasn't happened (yet?).
When it comes to de facto, Beijing "recognizes" Taiwan by allowing travel, communication and business. By Korean standards, China and Taiwan are unified.
I have no dog in this fight, but the HN rules state that you should not downvote a comment only because you disagree -- but, instead, because it does not add value to the discussion or is not constructive.
Just keen to protect HN from downvoting less popular views.
I totally agree with this. Unfortunately HN has gone completely down under now. I get downvoted to oblivion and sometimes even being flagged, every time I say an unpopular opinion, even when I give a full technical explanation to the discussion. I once got downvoted, flagged, and censored out for pointing out un-inclusive language, for example, and another time got downvoted several times for pointing out what I think are very valid privacy issues with Apple's practices.
If I were to make a suggestion, HN should require a reason to hit the downvote button. Otherwise this just amounts to censorship of unpopular opinions.
And in this case it's going to unfortunately turn into a popularity contest fight of up/down arrows between both sides of the Taiwan issue and frankly speaking that's unproductive. I think westerners who haven't studied that aspect of history really should see the historic facts as well as reasons behind why each side has their view. You don't have to agree with both but it's worthwhile understanding the origins in both viewpoints.
UPDATE (9/25 15:14): The downvote army is here again! I personally think I'm contributing to this discussion above, but yet they're still downvoting me.
That's an interesting thought. What if there were an optional drop-down menu that allowed down-voters to provide canned feedback?
Either way, I think you'd enjoy the discussion more if you worried less about voting. Unless you're selling something, the popularity of the sentiment you're expressing isn't especially relevant.
It's just that I think it could be a great platform for controversial intellectual discussions, but the algorithm is designed to promote conformity rather than raising unpopular but well-backed opinions. For example, I've gotten my speech muffled by the algorithm every time I speak out against specific Apple practices, or against the current version of capitalism (not even capitalism as a general idea, which I agree with, just not the current implementation). Somehow saying something against Apple or contemporary American capitalism on HN is just like saying something against the leader in authoritarian regimes; you'll be flagged, beaten (downwvoted), muted, and banned by the community.
I definitely like the drop-down idea. "I disagree" would not be one of the options for downvote. Some of the valid options I can think of are:
- Irrelevant to post
- Irrelevant to parent comment
- Offensive or violent language
- Personal attack
- Scientifically inaccurate
- Too terse / needs elaboration
It is disconcerting to see the popular or establishment view presented with different standards of evidence, sources or logic.
I'd leave "I disagree" as an option in this hypothetical. The down-voting user would have it as a shadow vote, without impacting the comment.
For scientifically inaccurate, I think they should be prompted to reply with a refutation.
Needs elaboration should just open a reply with "Could you please elaborate on..."
Separately, I've had thoughtfully written responses flagged for what is presumably disagreement. So may be the "flag" button needs a dropdown and the downvote button not showing up until you reply would be a good combination solution.
Despite this. both pg and dang have said this is OK.
Edit: Actually, I just went over the guidelines in detail (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) and there is no mention of appropriate or inappropriate use of the downvote. Where did you see this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Progressive_Party#P...
But the fact is, the DPP hasn't officially made this move. Not yet at least.
Anyway, my point is that the person I replied to, said that Taiwan recognizes Beijing. I assert that that's officially not the case. I know, de facto situation is different, but in international relations, and when it comes to international law, the de jure reality matters a lot. Official UN procedures follow the de jure reality, not the de facto one.
And this latter is one of the reason why China behaves like a "grammar nazi" on these matters. They have to, if they want to keep the current de jure reality. It's like a company sending tons of cease and desist letters to all people who produce fan content: it's not necessarily because they want to upset fans, but it's because if they fail to enforce, then they lose the trademark.
It seems that otherwise, unless the US militarily supports Taiwan, the PRC doesn't care whether Taiwan is de facto independent as long as they don't declare so.