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I agree with everything you said but can we please be a little more civil?

Am I a troll? Let's see... My software has been used by millions of people, I've been paid millions, and I've worked with some of the best and brightest minds on the planet.

I guess I MUST be a troll.

* "Anything you learn there is already 10 years out of date, and anything "new" you learn will be useless by the time you graduate"

This was in the context of CS, not anything else, which is why I suggested he go a non-CS route if a degree is his goal. I've reviewed some of the best projects to come out of todays CS programs as assignments, and I can tell you that they are rote, unimaginative, and lack real-world application value.

* "You have got to be kidding me. What you learn in school is not the idea itself but a method of thinking, method of critiquing and the method of learning. One of the most effective ways to learn to solve problems is to solve problems that already have solutions and to learn from those that came before you. Yes you may learn "stuffs from the 70s" but you are learning them for a reason. For example, just because NoSQL is in vogue right now doesn't mean that relation theory should be discarded. There is a value in going to school, being surrounded by a learning atmosphere, reassessing yourself every day and learning more about yourself." *

I agree completely. Why so defensive? Huge loan payments due? You don't need to go to an ivy league school to learn ACID compliance, or relational theory (although relational application is more suitable for real world problems). You also don't need to go to school to "find" yourself, and to presume with such conviction that YOUR position is the correct one is just as asinine as if I were to presume mine was the only correct path.

Some of us are natural problem solvers, who absorb and process volumes of information quickly. Based on your frustration level, it's probably safe to assume you are not one of those, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But, ya know, you're right.. clearly there's only one way to go through life, and yours MUST be the correct way, or why else would people like you sink to name calling and belittling just because someone has a dissenting opinion?

* Seriously, you get to meet people who started fields, who wrote books, who first thought of the problems in CS schools. Computer Science is still in adolescence. You will still meet legends." *

Seriously? You'd go to college to meet the guy who wrote Pong?, or the guy who wrote the first ray casting algorithm? Sounds like a rational fiscal decision. I'll bet Dad was paying the bill. I figured out long, long ago, while you were still a glint in your father's eye, that I can simply call those people up and buy them lunch, and they'll impart all their knowledge to me on demand.

* So? Just because you interviewed idiots doesn't mean everyone who got a BS/MS is one. Serious sampling bias there. I am sure YOU attract mediocre people. *

Again with the berating. You must be a stellar human to be able to look down upon us all. I've interviewed 327 people in my professional career, killed billion dollar deals because they weren't technically feasible within time and budget constraints, and made more money writing code than 99% of the people on this board will ever see.

Does that make me better? No. It simply makes me an individual with a lot of experience.

* "Jesus Christ dude, how old are you? what is your educational background? What do you aspire to be?" *

Perfect. The true measure of a man is his alma mater. Get serious dude.

I'm 43, and I have a quarter century of rock solid software development experience, all in real world applications, many of which are still used today, probably by you without even knowing it, and my educational background is not germane to this discussion.

What are YOUR qualifications? I suspect you won't post them in public.

And yes, I still sit down and have lunch with people who call me and ask to meet with me.

He asked for my opinion. I gave it to him.

Crawl back into your hole, troll, and mind your own business.

What a fucking joke.

>I've reviewed some of the best projects to come out of todays CS programs as assignments, and I can tell you that they are rote, unimaginative, and lack real-world application value.

What is with the sampling bias? learn statistic much?

>I agree completely. Why so defensive? Huge loan payments due?

>Some of us are natural problem solvers, who absorb and process volumes of information quickly.

I am sure you are.

>killed billion dollar deals because they weren't technically feasible within time and budget constraints,

Yup.

> my educational background is not germane to this discussion.

Your education is important to the discussion.

>Crawl back into your hole, troll, and mind your own business.

Haha fuck off.

Care to comment on this? * Get into a hot startup and listen and learn. The first six months will provide you with more experience than you'd get in a PhD program at any university (short of MIT or Stanford).

* Your education is important to the discussion. *

It's only important to you, and only because it's the only measure you have by which to assign the value of others. Hell, just 128 days ago, you were begging for advice on which chocolates to get your fellow employees so they would like you. You don't have experience, but you sure talk a good game.

* Care to comment on this? * Get into a hot startup and listen and learn. The first six months will provide you with more experience than you'd get in a PhD program at any university (short of MIT or Stanford). *

Absolutely.

The first six months of a hot startup is a microcosm or activity. Designs and ideas flying, deals, market tests, focus groups, venture capital pitches, startup camps, all night code binges, and more. It's 20 hours on, 4 hours off, for months at a time, pure adrenaline and pipelined learning at its best.

While you could argue that the VOLUME of information in a PhD program is greater, it takes six to eight years, and the VAST majority of that information is forgotten and never used. A bright person could easily pick up experience in a startup that they wouldn't see for ten years post-grad, if they just get engaged and pay attention.

Short of Stanford, MIT, and to some extent RIT, there really aren't many actively entrepreneurial schools that promote technology development from within. That's why I said "you can always go back". Sure, most choose not to, but that's a personal problem.

He should take a year off to work at one or more startups, then go back to school, if school is what he wanted to do.

So, let's take a look at Cornell, one of the top CS schools (#5 I think).

Here's their "Practicum in Operating Systems" (CS 4411 Project 1) for Fall 2010: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs4410/2010fa/CS4411/proje...

Now, the same course in 2009: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs4410/2009fa/CS4411/proje...

See any difference? Any modifications? Any enhancement or change of any sort?

Nope. None.

It was the same in 2008, but the page has been removed.

Two years of time has passed, new OS architecture designs have been published, some implemented, new threading paradigms documented, and some are in production, but the exact same project, with the same code, same requirements, and same final problem is to be solved, by the same morons that have no incentive to innovate because they're tenured.

Sure, you could argue "it's the basics, dummy!"... but wait...

It's a SENIOR YEAR project, and they STILL have these poor drones working on the food service project. This is AT BEST a sophomore project.

Any truly good developer with even a basic interest in OS design should be able to understand and implement the basics of kernel level pre-emptive multitasking and cooperative threading in year one of college, but these geniuses still have you studying the basics of semaphores and mutexes in your senior year.

Let's look at some of the Cornell senior year projects: http://people.ece.cornell.edu/land/courses/eceprojectsland/S...

Seriously? Sound identification of Loons? Arduino-based ANYTHING??? Touch screen user interface for a car using LabView?

These are the "geniuses" todays top schools are turning out.

It may sound like I'm calling out these specific people for their lack of imagination, but the fact is that they are the majority, and some of them go back into the educational system to get their masters in education so they can teach! Sheer insanity.

I've worked with hundreds of developers and mentored a dozen or so; some excellent, some not so much.

The one thing I can say without exception is that I have never met a truly prolific architect level developer that wasn't self taught. Most of them had a passion for programming, and an education in some other speciality unrelated to development.

Yeah, you can get some basics, and yeah, there's SOME value in compiler design, but nothing you can't get from "Dummies Guide to Compiler Design", which, if it exists, was probably written by a student admin ghosting for a tenured professor.

What a system.

You sir have no idea of what a computer science education is. You have no idea of what a PhD program is .

If you really think that 6 months of startup is comparative to a PhD in computer science, you are wrong. They both have merits but one is not a substitute for the other.

>Yeah, you can get some basics, and yeah, there's SOME value in compiler design, but nothing you can't get from "Dummies Guide to Compiler Design", which, if it exists, was probably written by a student admin ghosting for a tenured professor.

What the fuck are you rambling about you ILLITERATE OLD FART. Seriously dude. Just because you met some people who are not competent. Just because you got to a point where you think you have made it doesn't mean you can judge things you have no basis of. I don't even want to argue against the OS design course that you just said. Jesus Christ.

There is a reason why your original comment was downvoted to oblivion because those kinds of inane and retarded comments are left in your company and with your employees not amongst people who know that you are a piece of shit.

And go work on your billion dollar deals rather than going through my history. What a fucking tool.

LOL... What history? You have none. You've accomplished nothing, and you have zero social skills. Chocolates. LOL!

Have a great day.

* A 43 year old guy who claims to have been programming before the compiler, when compilers actually came out in 1957.

* A guy who can't even defend his ideas and gets defensive when his lack of education is called out and resorts to ad hominem attacks.

* A guy who has no clue about what happens in a good CS program disses the program and tries to defend his poorly researched knowledge with attacks on the person.

* A 43 year old who apparently kills billion dollar deals writing LOL on the internet and spending time looking at the user history.

I have never met a bigger jackass than you. I just started out in the industry but I am more mature, honest and I can guarantee to be a better programmer and a person than you are.

Fucking illiterate, old blow-hard.

Yeah, you're mature. right.

I suspect that you weren't in the "senior developer" group with your employer, and you're bitter about only making $8.75 an hour writing crappy code.

I never said I programmed before the first compiler, I said I wrote assembly before compilers were available. The first compiler was written in 1952, not '57, but if you had any study skills, you'd have simply googled that.

It's double digit IQ pinheads like you that make this and other sites like it a colossal waste of time.

Consider yourself ignored.

It's interesting to see you evade all questions and get to a personal attack.

This is my first job after graduation and I am sure I am earning more than you did after at least 15 years in the industry.

I know the history of compilers you fucktard. I didn't expect you to program using Grace Hopper's compiler so I gave you Fortran to play with instead. COMPILERS WERE AVAILABLE BEFORE YOU BORN YOU ILLITERATE.

Why don't you pick up a programming book, any programming book. A real one. Not a J2EE one. Pick up let's say Wand et al's "Essentials of Programming Language" and try to solve f the problems. If you can solve them, come back and talk to me. Then you tell me the value of concentrated, mentored, rigorous learning.

I think I've tracked him down:

http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=483874&authType=...

https://profiles.google.com/rwdryburgh/about

The guy seems to have a lot of experience, but not from education.

Thank you.

I do have a ton of experience, and formal education is not a prerequisite for success.

It's an option, and not always the easiest one to choose.

Cheers, R