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Comment by mathattack | Hacker News Reader

I concur that the H1B rules are awful. We should make it as easy as possible for the best in the world to come here. The laws as they stand directly abuse non-citizens for the benefit of companies, some of which are US based. The H1B holders don’t vote. The beneficiaries of a better system are more indirect, and less likely to make a case. (Most of us benefit when the best talent in the world is free to come here and build/create/pay taxes)

However... The system is arbitrary and can punish people short term. It seems strange to buy a house in a country that can kick you out on no notice through no fault of your own.

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> It seems strange to buy a house in a country that can kick you out on no notice through no fault of your own.

OK, it's strange to buy a house. What about marrying and having a kid? Many H1B workers here have lived there for decades (with no realistic hope of a green card in sight). Must we stay childless because we can be kicked out on no notice?

I know your statement is well-intentioned but it comes off as one of those things that's easy to say in 'abstract' but it demonstrates a lack of understanding of actual life situations of people.

I don’t intend to seem callous, so please help educate me.

If you marry a citizen, that accelerated the Green Card. If you marry a non-citizen, your situation is precarious, so why not rent rather than buy?

I’m not arguing that the rules are right. (They are clearly wrong) Just that if you’re ina precarious situation, avoid doing things that make it worse. When I lived abroad, the expats were all aware of being on borrowed time.

I think the world would be a better place in terms of peace and prosperity if people could circulate as easily as money. Unfortunately that’s not our world.

If my posts are wrong or offend I’m happy to delete them.

I am not offended and you have been polite, so please don't remove your posts.

Renting vs buying is fine. We can choose to rent all our lives and frankly in the Bay Area buying isn't even that slam dunk of a decision anyway.

My point was a bit more general. It's very common for people to argue 'technically' about how others should live their lives while missing their ground reality. For instance, it's easy to say "Well technically H1B is not an immigration visa, it's a temporary workers visa so why are you making long-term life decisions while on it". But the ground reality for most Indians and Chinese on H1Bs in the US is that they will never get a green card (permanent residence), and they will spend their whole lives here under H1B, so while the question is well-meaning and genuine, it translates to "don't buy a house, don't get too many possessions, don't marry[1], don't have kids".

[1] Unless you marry a citizen, in which case you are sometimes accused of entering into a 'green-card marriage' and seen with suspicion.

Yeah, my boss is here on an H1B, and has been with the same company for I think 12 years now, even though the company has had many rough years and I'm sure he would have switched jobs already if not for his H1B status.

He's since married and has a kid, used to live in an apartment but now has a house, although he might be renting, I'm not sure.

I started dating and eventually married my wife, got two dogs, and bought a house in just the five years I've been working at the company myself, so a lot of life events can happen in that time.

On marriage - it’s very broken, and abuses foreign workers. And I do get where you’re coming from. My wedding got accelerated by a year or two when my girlfriend has visa issues. (It was still worth it!)

Thanks for engaging politely and directly in a tough conversation.

As a guest worker you are not supposed to put down deep roots here. If you want to immigrate you should follow the law and get an immigrant visa. This isn't hard at all. It's just like being a guest anywhere else, you have to follow the host's rules even if you don't like them.

Many people who are in the guest visa apply for and are approved for permanent residency (which is what, I think, you meant by “immigrant visa”). They are simply waiting for years - decades even - for their turn. Life happens while they wait - marriage, kids, house etc - as mentioned by GP.

The term immigrant visa is well defined[1]. If you want to bring your wife and have kids and buy a house you should get an E series visa[2], not an H one. If you choose to go with the H-1B anyhow you are taking your chances and like any chance sometime it doesn't go your way and you have to deal with the consequences.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_the_United_Stat...

[2] https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/immigrat...

One need not have visited the US, or even _be eligible_ to visit the US to own property in the US.

What immigrant visa, exactly? H1b is the pathway to immigrant visa for tech workers in the US. For H1b holders born in certain countries, they have to be on H1b visa to be on the 5-10 year long queue to get the green card.

The appropriate E visa[1].

[1] https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/immigrat...

That's the exactly same thing I said: you need to be on H1b (or other non-immigrant visa but allows dual-intention, for example L1) and wait for maybe years or decades (based on your birth country) to get that.

Here's the current queue size: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/v.... For immigrants born in mainland China, E2's current queue is 4.5 years, for immigrants born in India E2's current queue is 11 years.

There is no mention of H-1B at all on the State Department page I linked you. Where are you getting this from? Sure some H-1B holders manage to later acquire an E visa, but nowhere is it stated to be a prerequisite. Exceptional individuals don't even need a US sponsor to apply.

Sure H1b is not a prerequisite technically. But say you are the employer, you want to sponsor this Indian person's E2 visa, but you need to wait for 11 years before they actually get the visa you sponsored and start to work for you. Now tell me how is H1b not a prerequisite in reality?

If it takes that long it's because the category you're in is heavily over-subscribed and at a relatively low skill level. Using H-1B to do an end run around that is common, but to call it a prerequisite is dishonest. Our immigration system has limits because we believe it is in our citizen's interest. This means not every foreign worker that wants to immigrate is going to get to. US law gives preference to exceptional individuals, because our law is for the benefit of our citizens and corporations, not foreign nationals.

For E1 the queues for China and India born immigrants are still 2+ years long.

Immigrant visa? What is that? I think the conversation is focused on the US. I'm a native-born US citizen, but my impression is that for those who get an H1B, they can apply for a green card and eventually citizenship. However, the path for many is fairly long. Perhaps you are confusing the H1-b and the J-1?

You can read about the difference here[1]. H-1B is a temporary visa and does not entitle a holder to permanent residency. In some cases it's possible for a H-1B holder to be granted permanent residency because it's a dual intent visa, but that merely permits the holder to desire to immigrate. By contrast a tourist visa would be denied to a visitor who expressed the desire to stay permanently.

[1] https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-visitors/visa-waive...

> why not rent rather than buy?

Have you ever tried to break a lease on accommodation in the US?

It’s cheaper than unwinding a house, no? Especially if you’re leaving the country.

Not necessarily.

A house is an asset you can continue to own if you leave the country, by renting it. There is no requirement to be US resident or even eligible to visit the US to own property in the US.

Breaking a lease can cost tens of thousands of dollars which is just waste - and if you ever intend on coming back to the country at some point, simply abandoning the lease is not advisable since the impact on credit reporting can be substantial.

So I'd suggest that it's actually cheaper to own a house, and simply _not_ unwind it.

Have you ever tried being a landlord if you are in another part of the same metro area that is only an hour away? I can’t imagine being a landlord dealing with rentals in another country.

This is what management companies are for.

And they take 10%-20% of your monthly rent and at least half of the first months rent of a new lease.

When I was in real estate, the banks would only credit your income at a 75% occupancy rate. It’s hard to break even on an income basis with rental real estate.

When your property is vacant, you’re still on the hook for the mortgage. More than likely, your income is going to be lower when you’re forced to leave the country.

I'm aware - the answer to "Have you ever tried being a landlord if you are in another part of the same metro area that is only an hour away?" is no, but I do from another country, right now, using a management company.

Because they do not foresee their situation becoming less precarious in the future.

AFAIK, marying a citizen gives you a straight path to resident papers and, later, citizenship, in the western world, including USA.

Marrying a citizen, yes. But the chances of H1B visa holders marrying other H1B visa holders (or people from back home) are pretty high given that the elephant in the room is that all of this discussion disproportionally affects Indians and Chinese.

A close friend of mine got married 3 years ago. He is a dual citizen of China and the USA. His spouse is a Chinese citizen.

This straight path you speak of they have been filing paperwork for and fighting for, for 3 years now. I believe he is just in the path to permanently moving to China and revoking his US citizenship status.

Everything about this process sucks. :(

How can your friend be a dual citizen of China and the US, when PRC does not recognize dual nationality?

Strange, my Chinese citizen wife got her conditional green card within ~6 months of application (about a year ago, we’ve been married less than 2 years and she took a few months to apply since her status wasn’t pressing). One thing they ask is if you are a member of the communist party (my wife never was), and I guess if the answer is yes things may be more complicated. I, myself, am a naturalized us citizen (from Eastern Europe, my dad got an E1 in 2001).

> The laws as they stand directly abuse non-citizens for the benefit of companies, some of which are US based.

So let's rein in those companies by giving them a talent pool of people who can't rock the boat too hard without fear of having to leave the country?

We should just have really loose immigration laws that let lots of people in. Never mind the best in the world stuff.

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