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Comment by Traster | Hacker News Reader

I'm so confused about what's going on now. First it was Microsoft, then it was a technology deal with Oracle, now it's Walmart? and Oracle taking a majority stake, spinning out the global operations? Oh and Trump thinks MS are still involved despite them saying their offer was rejected? Oh and the IPO is planned for long after the election so wouldn't? happen if Trump loses. Oh and meanwhile the likelihood of China letting themselves get bullied out of one of their biggest tech successes. How much of Google, Apple, and Facebook will have to spin off to Chinese corporations in return?

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It's more complex and nuanced than this what you've stated of course, why it's so confusing. Arguably, aside from security risk of the CCP having access to the data, banning apps is an leverage against the CCP having economic access to Americans to help influence the CCP to stopping their human rights abuses.

If the CCP had allowed the United Nations to visit the prisons/concentration camps to interview prisoners (etc) then this could have all quickly gone away, assuming the CCP was being honest about what was happening at these concentration camps and the UN could confirm that on the ground.

> the CCP having access to the data.

The data isn't the most valuable part. Which videos someone likes to watch could be worth something, but given how much easily available information there is already online this isn't a particularly valuable (or sensitive) thing.

The much bigger issue is the algorithm that decides what content to show people. The CCP could decide to leverage that black box to push content that influences users in the ways they desire. That's why the CCP passed a new law to allow them to ban the sale of the algorithm (and they've expressed their willingness to use that to actually block the sale of the TikTok algorithm). Their goal is to either keep control of that so they can influence international users or to keep their potential involvement opaque so that anyone who engages with the algorithm continues to be unaware of the fact that the CCP can push content to any user they want.

It was discovered the TikTok app was specifically gathering a lot more data from your phone than was relevant to the service at hand. This was a big thread on HN a little while back.

I do agree with your second point however.

Sure. My point is that the data they collect isn't especially valuable given how much other data is easily accessible for a nation state. The value isn't zero but if the Chinese Government loses the data about what TikTok videos people watched they aren't going to lose any sleep over it.

There is absolutely nothing that would convince me that this administration cares about human rights.

Agreed, it's happenstance that it's an issue they could piggyback on looking for "tough on China" propaganda all for appearance purposes.

> CCP having access to the data

Wow, CCP will be able to slide into 17 year olds' DMs. Massive security threat.

So much of the TikTok hysteria has been built on "CCP will have X". Is there any verifiable proof at all that CCP is actively and illegally accessing user data through TikTok?

The chinese being able to use data to influence 100 million American lives by determining what content is shown to people within a chinese app is a national security threat.

I'd argue it's already happening, too.

In March and April, all I saw were Trump's worst moments- his blunders, his viciousness, his arrogance. My distaste for Trump heightened; I became more reactive and further triggered by his incompetence. Then, back in early June, every last thing I saw on TikTok was insane forms of rioting and the worst police brutality there was. TikTok effectively increases national attention to things like this.

The algorithm, of course, is reacting to my behavior- behavior which surely suggests that this is the type of content I "want" to see. If I go searching for basketball videos, I can teach the algorithm to populate my feed with them quite easily. But I never used the search bar.

The danger of the echo-chamber, rabbit hole aspect of the algorithm combined with TikTok potentially hand-selecting the types of content to push by default to American people to stir political dissension is very much there.

Yeah, I'm struggling to see the connection here... All social media was absolutely inundated at those same times with those same events. Twitter was the worst by far. I had to uninstall the app after a while because it was just so full of negativity it was really starting to affect my mental health.

Is Facebook also owned by the CCP? Because that's the same kind of divisive content I see on FB. No need for TikTok to get this result, it is the byproduct of US politics.

People are complaining about a necessary byproduct of the US "globalization" strategy. It was a necessary result that in just a few years another country puts together technology equal or superior to US and starts doing the same strategies US companies such as FB have been using for a long time.

Not really.

Facebook is not doing what WeChat is doing, not remotely close.

Facebook allows people to communicate, and censors some stuff that is hateful. You can say anything you want 'against America' on FB. The US government does not have access to FB data without jumping through a lot of legal hoops and process, and even then, it's on a case by case basis. The US government has no influence over FB otherwise.

WeChat is an organ of the state, they have internal staff who are CCP members who ensure party loyalty. They censor absolutely anything and everything they want, they can promote systems that are 'pro-China' and ban others. They can use any and all data for purposes of control and suppression (social score etc.). If they have such apps in foreign countries they can access sensitive information, photos, communications, censor and effectuate propaganda.

Those are not very comparable entities.

This is nonsense, the CCP has millions of members in China, the same way that Democrats and Republicans are infiltrated in every company in America. The American national security agencies (NSA, etc.) are infiltrated in every large American corporation, especially in the technology area. You're just creating an excuse (political affiliation) to demonize a country's entire industry.

i really wonder in what world you are living. When was the last time the US government acticely censored FB or twitter or snapchat?

now try to find some ccp critical content on WeChat or TikTok (eg videos of Hong Kong protest). Especially while being on mainland China.

please let us know how it went

I you say something about Trump on Facebook, there is a 0% chance it will be censored by the CIA. There is a tiny chance it will be censored if you are calling for violence.

If you say something about Xi that is negative on WeChat there is almost a 100% chance it will be censored.

They have an Army of censors controlling all thoughts, making sure everyone is line with party ideals.

The comparison can't even be made materially - where do people get their information from? It's scary.

Would you please stop using HN primarily for political/ideological/national battle? I don't want to have to ban you again but you're clearly not using this site as intended.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.

> 0% chance it will be censored by the CIA.

Well, yeah, even when the US does violate the overt guarantees in its Constitution to suppress internal dissent, it's not the foreign intelligence service that is the direct vehicle. Mostly, it’s the FBI/Justice Department.

The problem is when there is no reciprocity.

The CCP plays the game unfairly and cheats blatantly.

Yes https://twitter.com/ericjang11/status/1289713401992683523?s=...

Linking a few of your own tweets to youtube videos is not very enlightening. Do you have an actual sourced article stating that the CCP is illegally accessing user data?

Sorry, I misread the original question. I am not aware of the CCP accessing TikTok user data (for instance, to track dissidents or surreptitiously use it to compute social credit scores).

? I'm shocked the question needs to be posed.

All Chinese companies have CCP organs within them that the CPP uses to ensure the company adheres to party policy.

They are using the internet and all it's operating entities as a massive surveillance and enforcement machine.

Try posting a TikTok critical of China, or saying something about HK and see what happens.

The data from Chinese apps can be accessed by Xi & Co. whenever, for whatever purposes, including finding out who your friends are so they can be sanctioned/imprisoned as well.

Now - TikTok USA division - that's another story and it's hard to tell how far enforcement goes. Definitely it's censored and definitely there are elements of propaganda (you can tell from the content) but it's not hugely obvious. As far as data mining, I don't have specific information but I don't see any reason why they wouldn't have access to it just like WeChat.

FYI This is why WeChat is 100% banned and there's no option for them while TikTok has an option to cut off from the parent company.

[1] https://thediplomat.com/2019/12/politics-in-the-boardroom-th...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-business...

why would anyone who was alive in 2003 even pretend to believe that a "UN Inspectors" offer from the US is made in good faith?

Is your solution that they should be completely dissolved because of 2003?

" then this could have all quickly gone away"

That's only a small part of what Trump cares about.

Security and trade are much bigger concerns.

Also - this is an election ploy to 'look tough'.

It’s really not that nuanced at all. Trump blames TikTok for ruining his first rally, when people used the platform to register for an event they had no intention of going to.

Just like Trump is going after Twitter and FB for being “unfair to conservatives”.

> How much of Google, Apple, and Facebook will have to spin off to Chinese corporations in return

You haven’t kept up on China’s policies on these companies over the past decade have you?

Can you clarify what you mean?

Google and Facebook were banned long ago in China - if anything these actions are retaliation for that.

Apple has been allowed in but has had to divest all data hosting to Chinese controlled companies.

Google wasn't banned. They pulled out due (primarily) to requirement that they censor search results.

That is still saying the same thing, isn't it?

This is a point most people seem to forget. In simpler terms it's retaliation - granted they could have done this a long time a go? maybe... but right now there are other interests at stake as well.

https://www.asiatimesfinancial.com/ccp-announces-plan-to-tak...

Not clear why you expect any less out of 2020.

The overall story is crazy.

But a lot of different players coming and going to see if they want to buy something, that's not unheard of.

For a free app without any revenue.

It's like the parasitic Cordyceps mushroom.

Plus it was removed from the Appstores today or something? Is that going to get reverted then? This is so chaotic which is not unexpected when Trump is involved.

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