Why wouldn't you use Android then?
I would personally like to continue paying higher prices to protect myself from low-quality background-syncing byte-code-obfuscated web-pages with push notifications, please.
I would personally like to continue paying higher prices to protect myself from low-quality background-syncing byte-code-obfuscated web-pages with push notifications, please.
Just enable the API Apple, I bet you already have it hidden behind some flags.
plus, they get the added bonus that they can demand you pay 30% of various transitions that they couldn't demand if you just left it a website that happened to be PWA
Their incentives are entirely aligned not to support the latest web standards and not allow any other browsers on iOS to add them
Yes, Apple wants us to spend all of our time interacting with / committed to their users. No, that aren’t maliciously trying to steal our time from other platforms. The thought chain ends with their platform, never considering that we even have other platforms to support.
A self-obsessed outlook is different from a deliberately sabotaging business plan, even when they present the same outward behaviors. Occam’s razor.
They could make every API opt-in or propose improvements, but they won't.
With IE6, people were at least allowed to install more capable browsers. With iOS there are no other browsers. Only user interfaces around Safari webviews.
Besides that, according to the latest App Store rules, apps that just surface cross platform services aren’t required to have in app purchases.
> How many apps [could] be viable as a website if only iOS Safari had push notifications[?]
I’d say a lot.
> [How many of them] would actually bring in any significant amount of revenue?
Adding this caveat doesn’t change my answer—but I really don’t like what it's implying. Software is not suddenly without value just because it doesn’t make money.
Yet you didn’t name any. If that were the case, you should be able to name the equivalent web apps on Android that must be apps on iOS.
> Software is not suddenly without value just because it doesn’t make money.
So where are those “valuable” web apps on Android? Also revenue is the most objective way to measure value.
Nonsense. Wikipedia must be worthless for you? What about air? Do you feel you'd breathe with more satisfaction if someone was profiting from the air you breathe?
On the other hand, there's plenty of immensely profitable things that have negative value. Cigarettes? Oil? Weapons? Opioids? I could go on and on.
“Value” has a definite meaning in economics. If someone is willing to pay for something, it has value to them.
What better choice do we have than to measure value across a population? How much value a population places on something based on how much they are willing to pay is objective. Whether that value is utilitarian or based on other factors is subjective.
Are we really arguing about basic supply and demand? Yes suppliers have methods to drive demand.
Reddit, Trello, Twitter. Probably Discord and Slack too.
I haven't used Android in years but I certainly don't see why these wouldn't work as web apps if you had push notifications. All the functionality is there.
That's why you're asking the wrong question.
You should see a proliferation of cases where companies create an iOS app and a web app for everyone else.
You're asking the wrong question.
Could it possibly be that HN posters are wrong and PWAs aren’t good enough on Android either?
Would they enable web notifications if it was universally available? Yes. Would they enable it just for Android users? Some do. Does this say something about the quality of PWA's? You tell me. You seem to be adamant that the web sucks, yet literally millions of companies are succesful on the web without accompanying apps.
Where are all the developers who are being forced to create iOS apps but are “saving money” by not creating Android apps because PWA support is so good?
1. Web, iOS, Android
2. Web, iOS - since PWAs are suppose to be “good enough for Android”.
3. Web
But you hardly ever see #2. Why is that?
May I suggest trying to outsource this small app to a freelancer? It could be a quite time- and cost-effective small project for someone who already has extensive experience with iOS.
People just allow everything and then get overloaded by all the worthless interruptions.
I know how to design and build things with my hands. I also know how to design logos, websites and other things. I can code and enjoy building and maintaining the network of websites I built in the past 15 years.
But I feel I'm spreading myself too thin when I'm also learning to code in React or Dart (Flutter) for a single one-off project. I fear I won't be able to put in the hours required to become adequately proficient in another field that's constantly changing.
The rest of what you said sounds pretty on par with the rest of the self taught programmers I’ve met (me being one of them).
I don't know why Apple is allowed to keep other browser engines out of their system, but probably just because the relevant people just don't understand that the Chrome/FF/etc. on iOS are just a Safari with a different UI and that it gives Apple about half (depending on country; in the US probably more) of the mobile browser share and users just the chance to either use Android or be stuck with Safari.
In addition, the author obviously doesn't know that the before mentioned push notification API is not just used for regular push notifications, but is also required for other use-cases like messengers for example.
Nevertheless, that is besides the point as the rendering engine is not the sole source of browser differences. I am not saying the Googles high market share isn't a problem itself, but that Apple is abusing their market position to hold back the development of the web (by not implementing relevant APIs and not allowing competing browser engines on their platform).
In my neck of the woods people most definitely do complain about Chrome, specifically the lack of privacy from being a Google product.
It’s a bit ironic, but browser engine monopoly on iOS is the only thing standing in the way of browser engine monopoly across all platforms.
The conversation is 100% about how much influence Apple should permit Google to have over the evolution of iOS.
are you really saying you would pay higher prices because you can' t press the "no" button and never visit the same website again?
It's not absurd to me to pay for platforms that attempt to preemptively remove filth rather than need to be on the constant lookout for filth. This is particularly true when most of these entire ecosystems (the web, app stores, video content) seem to be based on sneaking filth in front of your eyes at every available opportunity.
Making an hyperbole here, but wouldn't Mosaic 1993 edition solve every issue then?
I mean, removing features of course makes software more secure
I argue that disabling JavaScript would only bring great benefits to humanity
Apple market is rich, it is the richest tech company, with the highest market valuation ever, one cannot avoid it
So it's gonna drive adoption no matter what
Like it did for Flash (right or wrong, they did it)
I was writing web applications during the 90s, they were called intranets back then, IE wasn't bad, it was simply unavoidable
And being unavoidable halted competition for more than a decade
On another side: having a platform that doesn't obey to common standards creates tech segregation
I remember seeing japanes phones 20 years ago, they were ahead of time,but unusable outside of Japan
Last but not least, having a flag that says "allow me to shoot myself in the foot of I want to" it's less hostile than "you don't know what you're doing let me handle it for you"
WOW
That escalated quickly
I never promoted Chrome, in fact I'm an old time Firefox users and in the 90s I owned a Netscape 3 gold license.
I don't write fronted software anymore, but writing for every browser means adhering to the standard
Apple has steered away more than any other vendor lately
So...
Yes, which you’ll find if you do Safari adheres to quite well. Finding examples where it doesn’t is easy, just like on chrome. Which is why we have media queries and poly fills because it’s simply impossible to have a unified platform without one entity owning it. If you found out Chrome doesn’t render the same on linux as it doesn’t on windows, would you call this not adhering to the standard?
They don' t
Apple refused to implement 16 web API in Safari
> Which is why we have media queries and poly fills because it’s simply impossible to have a unified platform
And that' s why big players like Apple hat control a closed ecosystem shouldn't be allowed to be assholes
At least on Android I can install other browsers and other browser engines
Do you see the difference?
> Chrome doesn’t render the same on linux as it doesn’t on windows
that' s not true
Windows and Linux that have simply different font rendering engines and different native widgets
That's all
> would you call this not adhering to the standard?
absolutely NOT!
In no part of the standard rendering is formalized
It wouldn't make sense
The way things are rendered is standardized, not the way they should look
https://www.w3.org/TR/2014/REC-html5-20141028/rendering.html
> HTML is intended to apply to multiple media (it is a media-independent language). User agent implementors are encouraged to adapt the suggestions in this section to their target media.
OK and these APIs don’t stop real work.
> And that' s why big players like Apple hat control a closed ecosystem shouldn't be allowed to be assholes
And putting all that power into the hands of a single browser will not end well, so stop promoting Chrome or saying other browsers should be like Chrome. FF isn’t going to win.
> At least on Android I can install other browsers and other browser engines Do you see the difference?
Yes, next question, do I care?
> that' s not true
100% true, read the dev blogs and understand the WM on linux is fundamentally different than windows or mac, therefore rendering is not exactly the same.
Standards help align, they do not force alignment. If safari implemented a p element as a span, then this is not following the spec. Choosing not to implement a portion of a modular spec, is still following the spec.
Yes, just like you’re free to never visit an annoying website asking to spam notifications you’re free to take away Apple’s decision making power you grant them by simply not buying an iphone.
That's a very common argument
But it doesn't get any less stupid with time.
I never owned an iPhone.
Because I am an adult homo sapiens that can take decisions for himself.
But you should know that if a standard exists, and the standard has been approved by a consortium, a consortium where Apple is a very important member, they should at least support what they signed for, instead of forcing developers to go through hoops just to support their platform.
When Elon Musk make Teslas he has to put airbags in them, stop lights, front lights, safety belts, they must pass crash tests, because that's the standard, otherwise he couldn't sell them as cars.
So if Apple believe that the standard that they approved is too dangerous, they can make their OS more secure, instead of putting the blame on developers.
They are
> I’m a full stack dev, I understand what it takes to support safari and a majority of the time is actually Chrome being fast and loose with the standard
I am as well, I understand a closed platform when I see one.
> But the features lacking don’t stop meaningful work at all.
If only it was true...
It' s not lacking, it has been removed on purpose.
The web engine Safari is built from already supports those features.
You don't even understand the rules.
Sorry.
Notification APIs are in Webkit, the open source implementation of Safari.
proof: https://github.com/WebKit/webkit/blob/89c28d471fae35f1788a0f...
Can you prove that Apple didn't remove standard APIs from their browser?
Every time I pickup an old iOS device the stupid thing is nags me to update it, 100 times. And you can't just click no you have to click multiple things to get it to fuck off.
Or ask browser vendors to have a global allow/deny flag for every Web API
I don't want websites asking me to enable notifications. 99.9% of the time, the answer is no.
I don't want websites asking me to enable location access. 99.9% of the time, the answer is NO.
Nor do I want them asking for permissions to install to my Home Screen (the answer is no), or to track me (the answer is NO).
>Or ask browser vendors to have a global allow/deny flag for every Web API
When possible, I've carefully configured my browser to automatically reject these requests, but instead of respecting that, these websites, with all their hubris, have chosen to circumvent my preferences by presenting shitty JS-based permission requests (as opposed to using the permissions UI built into the browser).
Each one of these new web APIs have significantly degraded my experience as an end user, by presenting a million permission dialogs whenever I'm visiting webpages, without providing me with any features of value (again, because I'm not ever, ever gonna trust some random website with these permissions).
Users don't care to pontificate about the virtues of the open web, they just want their stuff to work. And until the open web can provide a better user experience, of course users are going to flock to various walled gardens (App Stores, Facebook, etc...). Until we find a way to implement web standards elegantly, without degrading the user experience, the open web is always going to face an uphill battle over the relative safety of walled gardens.
I know I don't want them.
Apple is in the committee.
Beyond the "punch the monkey" game you mention, another massive problem is that web push notifications have just become another vector to deliver spam to users. If you look at devices belonging to "normal" users, you'll often see dozens of spammy web notifications (pornographic content, "30% off, BUY NOW", etc...). And because these are average users, they don't necessarily understand how to configure their devices to reduce or eliminate the spam.
Web push notifications needs a way to proactively filter out those that abuse the API, otherwise its doomed to become just another vector for spam that pisses off end users.
But bad websites are not something we are going to get rid of using only iPhones...
To get rid of the cookie notifications, I can at least set web pages I go to default to reader view.
The problem is that if Apple singlehandedly decide what's right and what isn't we are back to IE.
They just don't want web apps to rival with the native ones skipping the whole store experience and fee
But that's just speculation on my side, I have no data to back it up
On top of that, how many apps are really just surfacing server hosted services where there are no in app purchases?
Among the most popular there are
- Uber
- Telegram
- Trivago
- Tinder
- Google maps Go
- AliExpress
Do you have a citation?
same reason people write native apps on iOS
It's easier to track users, especially those users rich enough to buy high end phones and that will probably spend more money and the ROI is higher.
They also make PWAS to gain user base on low end phones and emerging markets.
And because making them is quite cheap.
Do you propose that Apple makes Safari more able to invade privacy?
If the only purpose of PWAs for Android is to make it easier to run on low end cheap phones - that’s really not a good argument is it with iOS is it? Even the 6s from 2015 is more performant than many mid range new Android phones.
But those reasons are weakening.
Buy the hardware, install lineageos, insert SIM?
I am not sure why other people being allowed to install other browsers on their phone would force you to do anything.
Also an app can access and send more data than a browser window. Anything the webview can block can just get transmitted by the app itself separately. So there's no reason to block 3rd-party browser engines as the GP post says.
The real security issue is: if a bug in Safari is found (it happens quite often) users cannot use another browser in the meantime.
Not for most people.
That still does not force you to install those browser engines.
If you want the apple approved apps, in the apple approve app store, that fine. But me using different settings does not force you to not use those approved apps.
At any rate, maybe you're so worried about single-page web apps being bad actors that you're happy Apple so severely hamstrings them, but I... just can't see a lot to worry about there. And if Apple let PWAs be even a little better on iOS than they are now, it would go at least some distance toward ameliorating complaints about the App Store.
Disappointingly, Apple makes an exception for their first party apps.
Native iOS notifications are opt-in
Frankly, because everyone I know uses iMessage.
https://www.counterpointresearch.com/us-market-smartphone-sh...
https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-sta...
So Web Browsing is a very imperfect measure of installed base. Worldwide estimates are that that less than 20% of mobile devices sold are iOS, roughly 15% iirc. It’s almost certain US sales percentages for iOS are much higher, but no where near 60%.
Sorry but this is not an effective way to gauge market share of a browser or a platform. That 60% figure you're throwing around is not an absolute metric. It's based only on visitors to websites that use the "Statcounter" tracking code. There definitely is a large margin of error using this to gather statistics about market share.
In comparison, the other commenter's link is actually more accurate because:
>This report is one of the series of reports which tracks mobile handset: Smartphone and Feature Phone shipments every quarter for more than 140 brands covering more than 95% of the total device shipments in the industry.
Tracking site visitors based on sporadic implementation of a tracker, vs getting actual numbers of units shipped/sold. I'm going with the actual numbers, not the sort-of-guessing of Statcounter.
(Disclosure: I work for Google)
Units shipped doesn't tell the whole story either, but it is a specific metric that doesn't suffer from bots gaming things or any of the other problems that using stats based on tracking code can lead to.