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Comment by jasoneckert | Hacker News Reader

This article was written by someone who clearly values the aesthetic of Apple's mouse over function.

As a professional Mac user, each time I've purchased a new Mac that came with a mouse, I've always replaced it with one that fits professional use (currently, that is the Logitech MX Master series for me).

While the Apple mouse looks nice, it's clearly targeted towards users who don't use their mouse for long periods of time or for graphical work. Many non-professional users I know and work with have replaced their Mac mice (of all generations) with a different one because of hand cramping.

That being said, the black Apple Pro mouse was the nicest looking Mac mouse I promptly left in the box and never used.

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> it's clearly targeted towards users who don't use their mouse for long periods of time or for graphical work.

Speak for yourself. The Magic Mouse fits my hand exactly the way I use it, which means it doesn’t “fit” it.

Before it, I had a thick Logitech that was perfectly molded to be held; Too bad that my hand never actually fully touched it because I move the mouse with my fingers alone while the wrist mostly stays still.

I don’t know any professionals who consciously slide the wrist across the table, moving anything more than the fingers.

—

Apple mice seem universally hated, and I’m not trying to change anybody’s mind, but I’ve held the same exact mouse since 2009 for daily work and I wouldn’t replace it (except for gaming, which I no longer do)

I know a couple of people who suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome - and from what I understand moving your wrist is one of the things you're supposed to do to avoid injuring your tendons - anchoring your wrist and moving your mouse solely with your fingers should be avoided.

In fact, the Magic Mouse seems to be almost antithetical to everything I've been taught about mouse ergnomics

I think you have it backwards. Ergonomic mouse-pads have a big silicone pillow to rest your wrist on while you move your mouse with fingers only. Switching to such a mouse-pad is how my wife got rid of CTS.

For another point of comparison, what works for me is what the OP said is the worst, just moving the mouse with my finger tips. I also tried the mouse pads you mentioned, and they caused the most issues as they put pressure directly on my wrist. What I do is...

I line up the armrest of my chair with the top of the desk so they're a level surface. I adjust the height of my chair so my arm is at a 90 degree angle. My arm runs flat across the arm rest and the desk, and my palm sits on the flat mouse pad. Then, I just move my finger tips to flick the mouse 1cm in any direction for getting to different sides of the screen.

For keyboards it's similar. I use a thin and flat keyboard. This way my elbow (on the armrest), forearm, palm, and finger tips are all in a straight line. If I add any type of wrist rest, then the weight all goes to the wrist instead of being distributed.

Lastly, I dislike keyboards and laptops that raise the backside because they raise my finger tips and put pressure on my wrist. It feels much more natural for the fingers to be lower or equal to the wrist and palm.

Anyway, just my experience. I had some discomfort for a few years, and then nothing for the past decade.

I agree on the topic of mouse pads - What they're supposed to do is stop you from bending your wrist, but like you said, you end up with pressure on the very part you're trying to avoid.

Did you ever get a chance to try a vertical ergonomic mouse? They take a while to get used to, but the idea is that you don't rotate your wrist (i.e your ulna and radius remain parallel) and keep it in a more neutral orientation.

Oh, I never did try a vertical mouse. I remember seeing them for years but I never had a chance to spend time with one. It does seem like a much more natural hand position though.

Fire me, it's a bit of a chore to mostly grip (apply forces in two ways with one hand) a vertical mouse for full fine control (rather than a regular mostly "push down"/hand rest grip).

it's good to hear that your wife got rid of CTS, but generally the problem in the carpal area is one of pressure -- there is a bundle of nerves, tendons, blood vessels, etc., that go through the wrist. It's common for compression to cause problems. My wrist doctor advised me to avoid any pressure at all, because you can feel comfortable (e.g. with a pillowy surface) while still doing damage.

Seems like putting force on your wrist is precisely what you should not do (whether weight or flex). Note that pianists are typically taught to keep the wrist/hand flat and rarely suffer CTS (Glenn Gould and Bernie Greenberg are notable and sad exceptions).

Theoretically the best wrist “rest” in this scenario would be a bed of sharp nails..

We should keep in mind that ergonomic recommendations are for an average target at best, and won’t match a range of people’s use.

Those people injured their tendons and now cover it with their wrist, other people will have other issues, with other workarounds.

>We should keep in mind that ergonomic recommendations are for an average target at best

If you mean regarding to heights, distances, etc, yes.

Else, Err, not really. Anatomy is anatomy, people don't have different design of hands, wrists, etc.

People have different uses of their hands, wrists, different muscles and predispositions. For me personally the bottleneck was my finger’s middle joint, from too much mouse wheeling.

Even for the targeted morphology, if you exactly stick to the recommended posture and input device etc. for 8h a day whole week, you will have issues anyway, it will just be a matter of what hurts first.

The consensus as far as I know is to rotate posture (e.g. sitting/standing), input devices if possible, and try to avoid repetitive actions on always the same body parts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmaris_longus_muscle

"It is absent in about 14 percent of the population"

The wrist pad helps if the mouse is too large or the grip would force the holder's hand at an awkward angle.

If your palm lays flat on the desk and your wrist is at an upward angle, that'll hurt your tendons pretty fast and affect your fingers and wrist. The wrist pad doesn't help a lot though because if you move the mouse with your fingers you'll have to grip the mouse more tightly rather than just rwst your hand on it and move it around by moving your forearm.

Ideally your hand would be slightly rotated so that your pinky is closer to the desk and your thumb higher up and if you need something to elevate your hand, then the pad would be closer to your elbow so that you can use your forearm.

If you just use your fingers, have you ever considered a trackball? I’ve used them since I started experiencing a little wrist pain 12 years ago, and I thankfully haven’t experienced it since.

My favorites include Logitech’s series (MX Ergo wireless trackball, the version available only at Best Buy), and some new ones out of Japan by Elecom. Elecom’s are available on Amazon in a few different sizes - I bought two and returned one that didn’t feel good.

And the beat one I ever used is Microsoft’s Trackball Explorer, but that’s been discontinued for years, and fetched quite a price even used. Some of Elecom’s seem to emulate the ergonomics of that to a degree though, which is why I recommend them.

I tried to switch to the MX Ergo for a few weeks, and while it was ok, every time I tried that mouse again I'd just be way faster. Do you think you reached speed parity with the mouse?

I use Kensington's Slimblade Trackball which is excellently designed and works (for me) as a natural extension of my hand and fingers. I highly recommend it. (Be advised, the software was excellent but is now in a period of transition post-Catalina.)

I looked up Elecom's "trackball" offerings but only see trackball mice. Such designs reduce the trackball to something that can be manipulated only with a thumb rather than two fingers (index and middle). Such designs are unappealing and too restrictive to me.

They do have index finger models, probably not on Amazon US and not yet as perfect as Slimblade

> Such designs reduce the trackball to something that can be manipulated only with a thumb rather than two fingers (index and middle). Such designs are unappealing and too restrictive to me.

Interesting. Does that mean that with the kind of trackball you describe you'd have to move your whole wrist to move the ball left and right? I find I have very little lateral mobility in my index finger and practically none in my middle. Isn't that tiring after a while?

I often use an MX Ergo (which is a "trackball mouse" — thumb operated — and is my only trackball experience) and what I like about it is that my wrist can have a fairly natural position and I don't have to move it around or hold it suspended.

> Does that mean that with the kind of trackball you describe you'd have to move your whole wrist to move the ball left and right?

The trackball is fairly large, about 5.5 centimeters in diameter. So I personally use mostly finger movements with slight flicks of the wrist. However, the ball is so large one could keep one’s wrist rigid and use both shoulder and elbow to move it.

It really is a very comfortable device.

Is this what you mean?

https://www.elecom.co.jp/products/M-HT1DRBK.html

Or maybe this?

https://www.elecom.co.jp/products/M-DPT1MRBK.html

I supposed you're a life long Mac user who does NOT use right click often?

By default, Solid modelling apps (many of which do not even exist for Mac) make heavy use of right click. In blender you select the target of manipulation by right clicking.

Then, I obviously left out just doing normal context menu which requires right click.

In magic mouse, if you need to enable right click you need to spend most of the time with right click finger raised. Everyone I know who learned to use right click in non-mac systems have complained about the magic mouse precisely for this problem. All move on to use touchpads (superb in Mac world) or some logitech or Microsoft mouse.

Last time I used a Magic Mouse (the first version I think) it also wasn't possible to simultaneously right & left click, which caused problems in some games and a 3d modeling software I was using.

I've been using the Magic Mouse since it was released and I have never experienced this - you can rest your fingers on the right side of the mouse and it doesn't "right click" without you clicking. Outside of having to turn it off to charge it, the Magic Mouse is my favorite mouse I've ever used.

The right click does require you to lift your index, but the opposite isn’t true.

Like for gaming, there are some uses where the Magic Mouse performs poorly: For example when you have to click both left and right buttons at the same time (impossible with MM) or if you need more buttons (I dearly missed my middle click at first, but the gestures and minute scrolling made up for it)

When I got a magic mouse I really tried to get used to it, because it looks so pretty, but RSI forced me to go back to logitech.

The basic problem of the mouse is the touch surface. In order to allow for gestures the whole top of the mouse is interactive and the smallest touch sets it off. As a result you have to hover your fingers over the surface instead of resting the hand. In theory you can rest the back half of the hand, but in practice for me that causes accidental clicks because the whole body clicks down. The way to move the mouse is with a pincer grip. The combination of pincer and tense back of the hand by hovering the fingers is tiring and induces RSI. There is no way to keep the multitouch gestures and make the mouse ergonomic. Its strength is its weakness. Some people aren’t sensitive to RSI, for them it is fine. For me it was not.

I use a logitech mouse with extra buttons. All the gestures are replaced by buttons. It works well, and I can hold it in a natural way. But it doesn’t look as nice.

I use a magic trackpad and a logitech g502 myself. While I do like the idea of moving a mouse around with my fingers, I have small hands and found the magic mouse way too dang heavy for such use lol. Something like those little logitechs tends to work better, but they lack the extra buttons I like.

It's actually kinda comical looking at the wear patterns on my >5 year old G502. My thumb can't even reach the 'trigger button' lmao.

I really don't like the giant battleship mice either. But yea, i find the magic mouse way too heavy, a bit too wide, and way too long. The only way I can maneuver that thing is by hovering my hand above it lol.

I also hate the way you have to put it on its side to charge it. Who thought that up?

The trackpad is fantastic! But it doesn't work at all in Windows, so I don't get to use it as much as I'd like to. I also find that it doesn't seem to use the same palm rejection technique the laptop one does ,so I can't always have it in front of my keyboard.

I find it funny that Apple never really hit the mark with a mouse but knocked it out of the park with their trackpads. Like many commenters here, I never liked Apple's mice, from the old ones in G4's to the new Magic Mouse.

The Magic Trackpad though? That thing is truly magical in my opinion. I've been using the Magic Trackpad 2 since it first came out and I think it's one of the best pieces of hardware Apple has ever released, right up there with Airpods.

Apple’s mice are atrocious, but the Magic Trackpad 2 is my favourite pointing device, bar none. It’s gestures are by far the fastest way to navigate the multitasking environment in MacOS. Keybinding with traditional mice, such as the MX Master should ostensibly provide the same experience, but in practice it’s way slower and more disjointed than using the trackpad. I just cannot navigate MacOS with a mouse, as quickly as I can with a trackpad.

The trackpad is so good that I even know people that use the trackpad alongside their MX Master, for pinch/zoom, scrolling and multitasking.

This is a great way to work

Is there some trick to that thing? Whenever I use a trackpad all day, I get horrible finger pain. The only other activity that's as hard on my fingers as heavy trackpad use is playing Guitar Hero on a high difficulty setting (presumably playing a real instrument would be as bad, but I don't know how to)

Are you clicking with the pointing finger? Every time I see someone do that (which is common), it looks incredibly awkward — especially a click and drag.

Fingers for pointing and gestures, thumb for clicking. Use arm or fingers rather than wrist. I usually point with my middle finger, occasionally index, scroll with my middle and ring fingers.

ah, yeah, I think I'm just using it generally completely un-ergonomically

I can somehow get away with it on my mouse since I'm resting my arm and not curling my fingers or moving my wrist much, but the trackpad pushes things too far

I'm not sure how people can handle holding up their arms all day to do things properly ergonomically though

Hey, BTW, I don't know much about how things work on HackerNews, but this completely innocuous comment you made showed as "dead" with a "vouch" button. I clicked the "vouch" button and then your comment lit up.. I think your account is in some sort of punishment state

I’m in total agreement! The Pro Mouse and Apple Mouse were probably my favorite Apple-branded mice (the nipple on the Mighty Mouse still makes me shudder), and the gestures in the Magic Mouse were a nice introduction to what could exist, but the Magic Trackpad and especially the Magic Trackpad 2 are just perfection.

Thinking back, whether it is from a laptop or a Magic Trackpad, my primary pointing device has been an Apple Trackpad since 2007, save the four or five months that I used the Magic Mouse that came with the iMac I bought in November 2009 before the Magic Trackpad came out. I’m not a gamer, which makes a big difference, and I have great affection for Logitech's MX series of mice, but regardless of what system or OS I’m on, I just prefer using an Apple trackpad.

My pet theory is that the top comment on any HN post will be someone complaining that their specific use case isn’t served by something that was designed for a much wider audience.

It’s not a theory, it’s a fact

No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.

Apple's mouse could be a lot better. My main complaint is that right-clicking requires there to be only one contact point (on the right side of the mouse). This means I have to lift my index finger off the mouse when right-clicking, which is not very ideal. I am surprised they haven't refreshed the hardware capabilities of their accessories for so long.

Apple's wireless trackpad on the other hand is excellent.

YES. Learning to play fast-paced games with the Apple Mouse was definitely "fun" back when I was a student who couldn't afford another mouse aside from what came with my iMac.

You could afford iMac but not another mouse?

Perhaps it was bought for them.

Ding ding ding. It was also a base model that cost £870 with Apple's education discount.

I've been using Macs for nearly 2 decades, and the mice and keyboards are always the worst parts of the experience. Even cheap $20 peripherals are better.

What amazes me is seeing people selling old Macs on ebay with mice and keyboards that still work. Mine break in a matter of months. Keyboards die when dust gets under them, sweat would accumulate in old mouse scrollballs and make them unusable, and so on. I guess they just keep them in the box until they're ready to sell.

I don’t want to argue that the keyboards and mice are perfect, but we have two magic keyboards, two mice, and one gen1 trackpad that have all been extremely reliable. All are +/- 10 years old.

Well, one mouse and one trackpad didn’t survive a recent toddler/tile floor situation. But that’s not Apple’s fault ;)

I agree.

For example, recently I went back to a cheap 5 year old Logitech keyboard because my expensive Magic keyboard got stuck keys. It didn't even last 2 years of use. The Logitech one still works flawlessly.

I removed the key cap but the problem was in the switch itself.

I assure you that they aren't. (Well some of them probably are, but many are not.) I've noticed that many people have drastically different views of durability with Apple's products–not between products, mind you, but between people. And these are people are are both using their products day in and day out, without doing obvious damage to it, but one will inevitably end up ruining it within a short period and the other one will have something that looks almost new by the end. I have a pet theory that there is some secret subconscious way of handling Apple products that some people learn and some never do, and this feeds the usual "Apple's cables {never, always} fray for me" debates.

I’ve refurbished old Thinkpads and Macs and handed them out to friends over the years. Ive also noticed a characteristic around handling equipment. Some people will inadvertently (subconsciously?) destroy what they use while others attempt to preserve it with religious diligence.

I was particularly impressed when one acquaintance with a disturbed mind and bouts of homelessness returned a gift laptop to me after 5 years, thanking me for it and telling me he had bought his own. It was in utterly pristine condition, With not even a worn key. He had treated it better than himself.

>As a professional Mac user, each time I've purchased a new Mac that came with a mouse, I've always replaced it with one that fits professional use

I never much cared for Apple's mice of yore, but various models of the Magic Mouse (the one with the touch surface) has been a constant companion for a decade or so. The only big flaw the position of the charging port. Still, I'd take it over any third party mouse any day of the week (can't stand scroll wheels now, for example)...

>While the Apple mouse looks nice, it's clearly targeted towards users who don't use their mouse for long periods of time or for graphical work

Most Mac using graphic designers I know use the Apple mouse, so there's that anecdotal...

I've used Macs for a while, including a few years with exclusively either the magic mouse or magic trackpad. The best setup for me is a Logitech MX Master (still on the 2S for now, as it's hard to justify upgrading) and a magic trackpad for smooth scrolling and gestures (mostly spaces-related for the damn "full-screen video + open notification moving you to another space" scenario). I don't understand why mouse scrolling is so fucking bad when it works so beautifully for their trackpads (and yes I tried some of the available macOS or Chrome software for "smooth scrolling", using either of the MX Master's scrolling modes).

Speak for yourself. The pro mouse and mighty mouse fit my (possibly oddly shaped) hands perfectly, and I don't need to curl my little finger under the body of the mouse to grip it, unlike most allegedly ergonomic mice I've used. The entire side of my hand opposite my thumb gets cramps as I try to move all the weight of the ergonomic mouse with my little finger, but the pro mouse is wide enough to rest all four fingers on top and just let friction grip the mouse.

I'm just really tired of allegedly ergonomic mice that only cater to cartoon characters with three fingers and a thumb.

IMO highend ergonomic mouses have many features and looks luxury thus heavier. Some gaming mouses are really lightweight.

I’m glad you have something that fits your need but can we retire the trope of saying that something in a product marketed as “pro” is somehow inappropriate for “professionals”?

The “pro” term is really just a marketing upsell and different professionals need different things.

I wrote tons of code for my job on a 12” MacBook (crappy kbd and all) that even Apple didn’t market as “pro”. Doesn’t make me unprofessional nor does it say anything about the people who need capabilities that machine didn’t have. I simply needed the light weight.

> Many non-professional users I know and work with have replaced their Mac mice (of all generations) with a different one because of hand cramping

I can't agree more. I am actually surprised nobody has filed a case for it.

I love Apple design, but the mice are meh. MX Master 3 on the other hand… brilliance all around.

I have to admit that despite some annoyances I've had with the newer apple mouse (the batteries die very quickly, and the rechargeable one has the plug on the bottom so can't be used and charged at the same time), the gesture recognition on the top of the mouse is pretty darn cool and useful

I feel a little betrayed by Logitech. The MX Revolution was the nicest mouse I've ever owned. It had great feel and the right amount of heft. The placement and feel of the wheels and buttons were perfect and the right amount. Mine died after years of use. When I went to replace it, the replacements available lacked heft and felt really cheap compared to what they had gotten me used to. I assumed it was for gaming reasons. I ended up buying a used MX Revolution. I occasionally check in on what they offer, and am not very excited about it, nor do I trust them to continue a good thing if I find it. Now I just stick with gaming mice which is fine--there are some good ones. But I really just want the MX Revolution back.

For me the Apple mouse is disgusting. It is quickly covered with sweat and other oily substances, making it even dirty then the plastic keyboard beside of it.

Do you not wipe your computer peripherals from time to time?

Of course, with this mouse I have to. Feels greasy very quickly, so I have to sweep it all the time. Very annoying and not functional.

I like things that do that, though, because that means they don't absorb grease and that makes them easy to clean.

Fair point. :) Maybe invent a mouse which sprays a little bit of disinfectant with every click?

I think this is a better sign of your own hygiene than it is the apple product. Perhaps the oils, sweat, etc are more visible on Apple mice, but they are still collected on other items.

The point is, on the Apple mouse I feel and see this stuff, at other mice I don't. Generally it is not bad for your health, sure, but I do not like the feel of it. Feels greasy very fast.

The reason for the design of the Apple mouse is to provide a broad surface for swipe gestures. That is why it is low profile. It does make for more of a finger-tip grip and that may not be what feels good to you, but it is not really about aesthetics over function. The function is just not the one that you value.

I do think that the charging port location is silly.

I ask this seriously, what do you find you get with a nicer/professional mouse? While I have looked at getting one and am not opposed to it, I really don't know what makes a $100 mouse so much better then the $10 optical mouse I have.

I use a G502, they're not that expensive but I use the extra buttons for various things.

Also, the ability to unlock the scroll wheel is very helpful too. (Just flick it gently and you're flying up to the top of the page RSI-free)

Agreed. I’ve been using the base model $20 Logitech wireless mice for years / they fit my hand perfectly, have a pleasing ‘click’, work flawlessly and only require a AA battery change perhaps once every 6 months. They do accumulate some gunk on the edges of the four outside edges but are easily cleanable.

For the past 7 years I've been using a razer gaming mouse (forget the model - but it's basically the cheapest one)

What I get, is a mouse that fits MY hand perfectly and doesn't exacerbate pain in the wrist I have due to tendon damage.

I wouldn't categorise mice "professional" and "non-professional" but I think it's worth exploring a few different options if you can, to find out what works best for you.

Actually thinking about replacing the mouse with the ultimate hacking keyboard and one or more of it's add on modules.

Don't know about "professional" mice, but I for one enjoy some gaming mice. What I like about them is the high resolution, which means I don't have to move them very far. They also usually have nice feet that glide well. Higher end "regular" mice do too, but the cheaper ones usually have pretty questionable ones.

Some years ago, when my trusty G9x started having some coil whine issues I got a G700s. It was the first wireless mouse I felt didn't feel wireless. Instant response, very, very smooth tracking, etc. I still use it (with its original Ni MH battery!) along with an MX Ergo wireless trackball. While the latter feels much better than I remember wireless mice used to feel, I still feel the difference when I get back on the G700s or on a corded mouse.

> one that fits professional use

It just doesn't suit you and your profession. You can't say broadly that it's not 'fit [for] professional use'. If you're a professional author it's probably fine.

Now the magic trackpad 2 is so precise and delightful to use,I feel like it's an extension of my body using that thing day in day out. Also, the MX Ergo series is sitting next to my MX Master and MX Keys.

I remember our entire department requesting their brand new apple pro mouse to be replaced. Most went with logitech perf wireless (i think it was the mx). Good times.

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