Apple (Pro) Mouse (2014) | Hacker News Reader

Apple (Pro) Mouse (2014)

minimallyminimal.com

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This article was written by someone who clearly values the aesthetic of Apple's mouse over function.

As a professional Mac user, each time I've purchased a new Mac that came with a mouse, I've always replaced it with one that fits professional use (currently, that is the Logitech MX Master series for me).

While the Apple mouse looks nice, it's clearly targeted towards users who don't use their mouse for long periods of time or for graphical work. Many non-professional users I know and work with have replaced their Mac mice (of all generations) with a different one because of hand cramping.

That being said, the black Apple Pro mouse was the nicest looking Mac mouse I promptly left in the box and never used.

> it's clearly targeted towards users who don't use their mouse for long periods of time or for graphical work.

Speak for yourself. The Magic Mouse fits my hand exactly the way I use it, which means it doesn’t “fit” it.

Before it, I had a thick Logitech that was perfectly molded to be held; Too bad that my hand never actually fully touched it because I move the mouse with my fingers alone while the wrist mostly stays still.

I don’t know any professionals who consciously slide the wrist across the table, moving anything more than the fingers.

—

Apple mice seem universally hated, and I’m not trying to change anybody’s mind, but I’ve held the same exact mouse since 2009 for daily work and I wouldn’t replace it (except for gaming, which I no longer do)

I know a couple of people who suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome - and from what I understand moving your wrist is one of the things you're supposed to do to avoid injuring your tendons - anchoring your wrist and moving your mouse solely with your fingers should be avoided.

In fact, the Magic Mouse seems to be almost antithetical to everything I've been taught about mouse ergnomics

I think you have it backwards. Ergonomic mouse-pads have a big silicone pillow to rest your wrist on while you move your mouse with fingers only. Switching to such a mouse-pad is how my wife got rid of CTS.

For another point of comparison, what works for me is what the OP said is the worst, just moving the mouse with my finger tips. I also tried the mouse pads you mentioned, and they caused the most issues as they put pressure directly on my wrist. What I do is...

I line up the armrest of my chair with the top of the desk so they're a level surface. I adjust the height of my chair so my arm is at a 90 degree angle. My arm runs flat across the arm rest and the desk, and my palm sits on the flat mouse pad. Then, I just move my finger tips to flick the mouse 1cm in any direction for getting to different sides of the screen.

For keyboards it's similar. I use a thin and flat keyboard. This way my elbow (on the armrest), forearm, palm, and finger tips are all in a straight line. If I add any type of wrist rest, then the weight all goes to the wrist instead of being distributed.

Lastly, I dislike keyboards and laptops that raise the backside because they raise my finger tips and put pressure on my wrist. It feels much more natural for the fingers to be lower or equal to the wrist and palm.

Anyway, just my experience. I had some discomfort for a few years, and then nothing for the past decade.

I agree on the topic of mouse pads - What they're supposed to do is stop you from bending your wrist, but like you said, you end up with pressure on the very part you're trying to avoid.

Did you ever get a chance to try a vertical ergonomic mouse? They take a while to get used to, but the idea is that you don't rotate your wrist (i.e your ulna and radius remain parallel) and keep it in a more neutral orientation.

Oh, I never did try a vertical mouse. I remember seeing them for years but I never had a chance to spend time with one. It does seem like a much more natural hand position though.

Fire me, it's a bit of a chore to mostly grip (apply forces in two ways with one hand) a vertical mouse for full fine control (rather than a regular mostly "push down"/hand rest grip).

it's good to hear that your wife got rid of CTS, but generally the problem in the carpal area is one of pressure -- there is a bundle of nerves, tendons, blood vessels, etc., that go through the wrist. It's common for compression to cause problems. My wrist doctor advised me to avoid any pressure at all, because you can feel comfortable (e.g. with a pillowy surface) while still doing damage.

Seems like putting force on your wrist is precisely what you should not do (whether weight or flex). Note that pianists are typically taught to keep the wrist/hand flat and rarely suffer CTS (Glenn Gould and Bernie Greenberg are notable and sad exceptions).

Theoretically the best wrist “rest” in this scenario would be a bed of sharp nails..

We should keep in mind that ergonomic recommendations are for an average target at best, and won’t match a range of people’s use.

Those people injured their tendons and now cover it with their wrist, other people will have other issues, with other workarounds.

>We should keep in mind that ergonomic recommendations are for an average target at best

If you mean regarding to heights, distances, etc, yes.

Else, Err, not really. Anatomy is anatomy, people don't have different design of hands, wrists, etc.

People have different uses of their hands, wrists, different muscles and predispositions. For me personally the bottleneck was my finger’s middle joint, from too much mouse wheeling.

Even for the targeted morphology, if you exactly stick to the recommended posture and input device etc. for 8h a day whole week, you will have issues anyway, it will just be a matter of what hurts first.

The consensus as far as I know is to rotate posture (e.g. sitting/standing), input devices if possible, and try to avoid repetitive actions on always the same body parts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmaris_longus_muscle

"It is absent in about 14 percent of the population"

The wrist pad helps if the mouse is too large or the grip would force the holder's hand at an awkward angle.

If your palm lays flat on the desk and your wrist is at an upward angle, that'll hurt your tendons pretty fast and affect your fingers and wrist. The wrist pad doesn't help a lot though because if you move the mouse with your fingers you'll have to grip the mouse more tightly rather than just rwst your hand on it and move it around by moving your forearm.

Ideally your hand would be slightly rotated so that your pinky is closer to the desk and your thumb higher up and if you need something to elevate your hand, then the pad would be closer to your elbow so that you can use your forearm.

If you just use your fingers, have you ever considered a trackball? I’ve used them since I started experiencing a little wrist pain 12 years ago, and I thankfully haven’t experienced it since.

My favorites include Logitech’s series (MX Ergo wireless trackball, the version available only at Best Buy), and some new ones out of Japan by Elecom. Elecom’s are available on Amazon in a few different sizes - I bought two and returned one that didn’t feel good.

And the beat one I ever used is Microsoft’s Trackball Explorer, but that’s been discontinued for years, and fetched quite a price even used. Some of Elecom’s seem to emulate the ergonomics of that to a degree though, which is why I recommend them.

I tried to switch to the MX Ergo for a few weeks, and while it was ok, every time I tried that mouse again I'd just be way faster. Do you think you reached speed parity with the mouse?

I use Kensington's Slimblade Trackball which is excellently designed and works (for me) as a natural extension of my hand and fingers. I highly recommend it. (Be advised, the software was excellent but is now in a period of transition post-Catalina.)

I looked up Elecom's "trackball" offerings but only see trackball mice. Such designs reduce the trackball to something that can be manipulated only with a thumb rather than two fingers (index and middle). Such designs are unappealing and too restrictive to me.

They do have index finger models, probably not on Amazon US and not yet as perfect as Slimblade

> Such designs reduce the trackball to something that can be manipulated only with a thumb rather than two fingers (index and middle). Such designs are unappealing and too restrictive to me.

Interesting. Does that mean that with the kind of trackball you describe you'd have to move your whole wrist to move the ball left and right? I find I have very little lateral mobility in my index finger and practically none in my middle. Isn't that tiring after a while?

I often use an MX Ergo (which is a "trackball mouse" — thumb operated — and is my only trackball experience) and what I like about it is that my wrist can have a fairly natural position and I don't have to move it around or hold it suspended.

> Does that mean that with the kind of trackball you describe you'd have to move your whole wrist to move the ball left and right?

The trackball is fairly large, about 5.5 centimeters in diameter. So I personally use mostly finger movements with slight flicks of the wrist. However, the ball is so large one could keep one’s wrist rigid and use both shoulder and elbow to move it.

It really is a very comfortable device.

Is this what you mean?

https://www.elecom.co.jp/products/M-HT1DRBK.html

Or maybe this?

https://www.elecom.co.jp/products/M-DPT1MRBK.html

I supposed you're a life long Mac user who does NOT use right click often?

By default, Solid modelling apps (many of which do not even exist for Mac) make heavy use of right click. In blender you select the target of manipulation by right clicking.

Then, I obviously left out just doing normal context menu which requires right click.

In magic mouse, if you need to enable right click you need to spend most of the time with right click finger raised. Everyone I know who learned to use right click in non-mac systems have complained about the magic mouse precisely for this problem. All move on to use touchpads (superb in Mac world) or some logitech or Microsoft mouse.

Last time I used a Magic Mouse (the first version I think) it also wasn't possible to simultaneously right & left click, which caused problems in some games and a 3d modeling software I was using.

I've been using the Magic Mouse since it was released and I have never experienced this - you can rest your fingers on the right side of the mouse and it doesn't "right click" without you clicking. Outside of having to turn it off to charge it, the Magic Mouse is my favorite mouse I've ever used.

The right click does require you to lift your index, but the opposite isn’t true.

Like for gaming, there are some uses where the Magic Mouse performs poorly: For example when you have to click both left and right buttons at the same time (impossible with MM) or if you need more buttons (I dearly missed my middle click at first, but the gestures and minute scrolling made up for it)

When I got a magic mouse I really tried to get used to it, because it looks so pretty, but RSI forced me to go back to logitech.

The basic problem of the mouse is the touch surface. In order to allow for gestures the whole top of the mouse is interactive and the smallest touch sets it off. As a result you have to hover your fingers over the surface instead of resting the hand. In theory you can rest the back half of the hand, but in practice for me that causes accidental clicks because the whole body clicks down. The way to move the mouse is with a pincer grip. The combination of pincer and tense back of the hand by hovering the fingers is tiring and induces RSI. There is no way to keep the multitouch gestures and make the mouse ergonomic. Its strength is its weakness. Some people aren’t sensitive to RSI, for them it is fine. For me it was not.

I use a logitech mouse with extra buttons. All the gestures are replaced by buttons. It works well, and I can hold it in a natural way. But it doesn’t look as nice.

I use a magic trackpad and a logitech g502 myself. While I do like the idea of moving a mouse around with my fingers, I have small hands and found the magic mouse way too dang heavy for such use lol. Something like those little logitechs tends to work better, but they lack the extra buttons I like.

It's actually kinda comical looking at the wear patterns on my >5 year old G502. My thumb can't even reach the 'trigger button' lmao.

I really don't like the giant battleship mice either. But yea, i find the magic mouse way too heavy, a bit too wide, and way too long. The only way I can maneuver that thing is by hovering my hand above it lol.

I also hate the way you have to put it on its side to charge it. Who thought that up?

The trackpad is fantastic! But it doesn't work at all in Windows, so I don't get to use it as much as I'd like to. I also find that it doesn't seem to use the same palm rejection technique the laptop one does ,so I can't always have it in front of my keyboard.

I love Apple design, but the mice are meh. MX Master 3 on the other hand… brilliance all around.

I ask this seriously, what do you find you get with a nicer/professional mouse? While I have looked at getting one and am not opposed to it, I really don't know what makes a $100 mouse so much better then the $10 optical mouse I have.

I use a G502, they're not that expensive but I use the extra buttons for various things.

Also, the ability to unlock the scroll wheel is very helpful too. (Just flick it gently and you're flying up to the top of the page RSI-free)

Agreed. I’ve been using the base model $20 Logitech wireless mice for years / they fit my hand perfectly, have a pleasing ‘click’, work flawlessly and only require a AA battery change perhaps once every 6 months. They do accumulate some gunk on the edges of the four outside edges but are easily cleanable.

For the past 7 years I've been using a razer gaming mouse (forget the model - but it's basically the cheapest one)

What I get, is a mouse that fits MY hand perfectly and doesn't exacerbate pain in the wrist I have due to tendon damage.

I wouldn't categorise mice "professional" and "non-professional" but I think it's worth exploring a few different options if you can, to find out what works best for you.

Actually thinking about replacing the mouse with the ultimate hacking keyboard and one or more of it's add on modules.

Don't know about "professional" mice, but I for one enjoy some gaming mice. What I like about them is the high resolution, which means I don't have to move them very far. They also usually have nice feet that glide well. Higher end "regular" mice do too, but the cheaper ones usually have pretty questionable ones.

Some years ago, when my trusty G9x started having some coil whine issues I got a G700s. It was the first wireless mouse I felt didn't feel wireless. Instant response, very, very smooth tracking, etc. I still use it (with its original Ni MH battery!) along with an MX Ergo wireless trackball. While the latter feels much better than I remember wireless mice used to feel, I still feel the difference when I get back on the G700s or on a corded mouse.

I remember our entire department requesting their brand new apple pro mouse to be replaced. Most went with logitech perf wireless (i think it was the mx). Good times.

My pet theory is that the top comment on any HN post will be someone complaining that their specific use case isn’t served by something that was designed for a much wider audience.

It’s not a theory, it’s a fact

No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.

> Many non-professional users I know and work with have replaced their Mac mice (of all generations) with a different one because of hand cramping

I can't agree more. I am actually surprised nobody has filed a case for it.

For me the Apple mouse is disgusting. It is quickly covered with sweat and other oily substances, making it even dirty then the plastic keyboard beside of it.

Do you not wipe your computer peripherals from time to time?

Of course, with this mouse I have to. Feels greasy very quickly, so I have to sweep it all the time. Very annoying and not functional.

I like things that do that, though, because that means they don't absorb grease and that makes them easy to clean.

Fair point. :) Maybe invent a mouse which sprays a little bit of disinfectant with every click?

I think this is a better sign of your own hygiene than it is the apple product. Perhaps the oils, sweat, etc are more visible on Apple mice, but they are still collected on other items.

The point is, on the Apple mouse I feel and see this stuff, at other mice I don't. Generally it is not bad for your health, sure, but I do not like the feel of it. Feels greasy very fast.

Apple's mouse could be a lot better. My main complaint is that right-clicking requires there to be only one contact point (on the right side of the mouse). This means I have to lift my index finger off the mouse when right-clicking, which is not very ideal. I am surprised they haven't refreshed the hardware capabilities of their accessories for so long.

Apple's wireless trackpad on the other hand is excellent.

YES. Learning to play fast-paced games with the Apple Mouse was definitely "fun" back when I was a student who couldn't afford another mouse aside from what came with my iMac.

You could afford iMac but not another mouse?

Perhaps it was bought for them.

Ding ding ding. It was also a base model that cost £870 with Apple's education discount.

> one that fits professional use

It just doesn't suit you and your profession. You can't say broadly that it's not 'fit [for] professional use'. If you're a professional author it's probably fine.

I've been using Macs for nearly 2 decades, and the mice and keyboards are always the worst parts of the experience. Even cheap $20 peripherals are better.

What amazes me is seeing people selling old Macs on ebay with mice and keyboards that still work. Mine break in a matter of months. Keyboards die when dust gets under them, sweat would accumulate in old mouse scrollballs and make them unusable, and so on. I guess they just keep them in the box until they're ready to sell.

I don’t want to argue that the keyboards and mice are perfect, but we have two magic keyboards, two mice, and one gen1 trackpad that have all been extremely reliable. All are +/- 10 years old.

Well, one mouse and one trackpad didn’t survive a recent toddler/tile floor situation. But that’s not Apple’s fault ;)

I agree.

For example, recently I went back to a cheap 5 year old Logitech keyboard because my expensive Magic keyboard got stuck keys. It didn't even last 2 years of use. The Logitech one still works flawlessly.

I removed the key cap but the problem was in the switch itself.

I assure you that they aren't. (Well some of them probably are, but many are not.) I've noticed that many people have drastically different views of durability with Apple's products–not between products, mind you, but between people. And these are people are are both using their products day in and day out, without doing obvious damage to it, but one will inevitably end up ruining it within a short period and the other one will have something that looks almost new by the end. I have a pet theory that there is some secret subconscious way of handling Apple products that some people learn and some never do, and this feeds the usual "Apple's cables {never, always} fray for me" debates.

I’ve refurbished old Thinkpads and Macs and handed them out to friends over the years. Ive also noticed a characteristic around handling equipment. Some people will inadvertently (subconsciously?) destroy what they use while others attempt to preserve it with religious diligence.

I was particularly impressed when one acquaintance with a disturbed mind and bouts of homelessness returned a gift laptop to me after 5 years, thanking me for it and telling me he had bought his own. It was in utterly pristine condition, With not even a worn key. He had treated it better than himself.

Speak for yourself. The pro mouse and mighty mouse fit my (possibly oddly shaped) hands perfectly, and I don't need to curl my little finger under the body of the mouse to grip it, unlike most allegedly ergonomic mice I've used. The entire side of my hand opposite my thumb gets cramps as I try to move all the weight of the ergonomic mouse with my little finger, but the pro mouse is wide enough to rest all four fingers on top and just let friction grip the mouse.

I'm just really tired of allegedly ergonomic mice that only cater to cartoon characters with three fingers and a thumb.

IMO highend ergonomic mouses have many features and looks luxury thus heavier. Some gaming mouses are really lightweight.

I have to admit that despite some annoyances I've had with the newer apple mouse (the batteries die very quickly, and the rechargeable one has the plug on the bottom so can't be used and charged at the same time), the gesture recognition on the top of the mouse is pretty darn cool and useful

>As a professional Mac user, each time I've purchased a new Mac that came with a mouse, I've always replaced it with one that fits professional use

I never much cared for Apple's mice of yore, but various models of the Magic Mouse (the one with the touch surface) has been a constant companion for a decade or so. The only big flaw the position of the charging port. Still, I'd take it over any third party mouse any day of the week (can't stand scroll wheels now, for example)...

>While the Apple mouse looks nice, it's clearly targeted towards users who don't use their mouse for long periods of time or for graphical work

Most Mac using graphic designers I know use the Apple mouse, so there's that anecdotal...

I've used Macs for a while, including a few years with exclusively either the magic mouse or magic trackpad. The best setup for me is a Logitech MX Master (still on the 2S for now, as it's hard to justify upgrading) and a magic trackpad for smooth scrolling and gestures (mostly spaces-related for the damn "full-screen video + open notification moving you to another space" scenario). I don't understand why mouse scrolling is so fucking bad when it works so beautifully for their trackpads (and yes I tried some of the available macOS or Chrome software for "smooth scrolling", using either of the MX Master's scrolling modes).

I find it funny that Apple never really hit the mark with a mouse but knocked it out of the park with their trackpads. Like many commenters here, I never liked Apple's mice, from the old ones in G4's to the new Magic Mouse.

The Magic Trackpad though? That thing is truly magical in my opinion. I've been using the Magic Trackpad 2 since it first came out and I think it's one of the best pieces of hardware Apple has ever released, right up there with Airpods.

Apple’s mice are atrocious, but the Magic Trackpad 2 is my favourite pointing device, bar none. It’s gestures are by far the fastest way to navigate the multitasking environment in MacOS. Keybinding with traditional mice, such as the MX Master should ostensibly provide the same experience, but in practice it’s way slower and more disjointed than using the trackpad. I just cannot navigate MacOS with a mouse, as quickly as I can with a trackpad.

The trackpad is so good that I even know people that use the trackpad alongside their MX Master, for pinch/zoom, scrolling and multitasking.

This is a great way to work

Is there some trick to that thing? Whenever I use a trackpad all day, I get horrible finger pain. The only other activity that's as hard on my fingers as heavy trackpad use is playing Guitar Hero on a high difficulty setting (presumably playing a real instrument would be as bad, but I don't know how to)

Are you clicking with the pointing finger? Every time I see someone do that (which is common), it looks incredibly awkward — especially a click and drag.

Fingers for pointing and gestures, thumb for clicking. Use arm or fingers rather than wrist. I usually point with my middle finger, occasionally index, scroll with my middle and ring fingers.

ah, yeah, I think I'm just using it generally completely un-ergonomically

I can somehow get away with it on my mouse since I'm resting my arm and not curling my fingers or moving my wrist much, but the trackpad pushes things too far

I'm not sure how people can handle holding up their arms all day to do things properly ergonomically though

Hey, BTW, I don't know much about how things work on HackerNews, but this completely innocuous comment you made showed as "dead" with a "vouch" button. I clicked the "vouch" button and then your comment lit up.. I think your account is in some sort of punishment state

I’m in total agreement! The Pro Mouse and Apple Mouse were probably my favorite Apple-branded mice (the nipple on the Mighty Mouse still makes me shudder), and the gestures in the Magic Mouse were a nice introduction to what could exist, but the Magic Trackpad and especially the Magic Trackpad 2 are just perfection.

Thinking back, whether it is from a laptop or a Magic Trackpad, my primary pointing device has been an Apple Trackpad since 2007, save the four or five months that I used the Magic Mouse that came with the iMac I bought in November 2009 before the Magic Trackpad came out. I’m not a gamer, which makes a big difference, and I have great affection for Logitech's MX series of mice, but regardless of what system or OS I’m on, I just prefer using an Apple trackpad.

I feel a little betrayed by Logitech. The MX Revolution was the nicest mouse I've ever owned. It had great feel and the right amount of heft. The placement and feel of the wheels and buttons were perfect and the right amount. Mine died after years of use. When I went to replace it, the replacements available lacked heft and felt really cheap compared to what they had gotten me used to. I assumed it was for gaming reasons. I ended up buying a used MX Revolution. I occasionally check in on what they offer, and am not very excited about it, nor do I trust them to continue a good thing if I find it. Now I just stick with gaming mice which is fine--there are some good ones. But I really just want the MX Revolution back.

I’m glad you have something that fits your need but can we retire the trope of saying that something in a product marketed as “pro” is somehow inappropriate for “professionals”?

The “pro” term is really just a marketing upsell and different professionals need different things.

I wrote tons of code for my job on a 12” MacBook (crappy kbd and all) that even Apple didn’t market as “pro”. Doesn’t make me unprofessional nor does it say anything about the people who need capabilities that machine didn’t have. I simply needed the light weight.

The reason for the design of the Apple mouse is to provide a broad surface for swipe gestures. That is why it is low profile. It does make for more of a finger-tip grip and that may not be what feels good to you, but it is not really about aesthetics over function. The function is just not the one that you value.

I do think that the charging port location is silly.

Now the magic trackpad 2 is so precise and delightful to use,I feel like it's an extension of my body using that thing day in day out. Also, the MX Ergo series is sitting next to my MX Master and MX Keys.

I used one of those mice. It was horrid in almost every way. The worst part is that the click had such a low activation force that if you rested the weight of your palm on the mouse it would click, and the side grips were poorly placed. Classic Bay-area "you're holding it wrong" arrogance in design.

However, I have to say that despite that first extremely unpleasant experience with Apple peripherals I actually quite enjoy using my Magic Mouse, and the touch-sensitive surface is one of the more interesting innovations in a field that's largely been stagnant and where most "innovation" seems to be high-DPI lasers and RGB LEDs.

The ability to use touch gestures on the mouse itself (i.e. 3-finger swipe on the mouse's surface to switch workspaces, 2-finger swipes for browser back/fwd navigation, scrolling, etc.) is pretty awesome and not something I've seen anywhere else. I'd never depend on it for getting headshots in counterstrike but for desktop mousing it tracks okay and the battery is quite good.

Had the Magic Mouse, it eats through batteries like mice eat through cheese and got a bit annoyed with it, changed for a cheapo Logitech or Dell mouse, used that for 5 years, then bought an entry level Steel Series gaming mouse which is better in almost every aspect. Then ditched the 2011 Mac @work for a Linux box.

When I was using the Magic Mouse regularly I bought a rechargeable battery replacement that charged via induction on a little pad that plugged into the computer via USB for power. It worked great. (That said I’m using a Corsair Scimitar now and running Linux on my Apple hardware.)

Totally agree with this. Beauty doesn't necessarily translate to easy of use and ergonomic. Specially for people who uses computer for hours, ergonomics is more important than how it feels/looks in short term.

Sometimes, the multi-touch swipe functionality can be quite annoying due to the sensitivity of the mouse. For example, I could be trying to swipe left to exit a webpage but instead it is controlling a slider somewhere on the page. When I am editing text, I can't save the document because the swipe gesture on the mouse is unintentionally controlling another active window. I can somewhat live with this, but its annoying.

As for Apple's standard keyboards for Desktop Mac or PCs, I hope you have a lamp somewhere as they still don't have any keyboard backlight functionality. Even some third-party USB-C wireless mechanical keyboards have this and are much cheaper than Apple's keyboards.

Given Apple's typical expensive pricing with their keyboards, and the lack of a keyboard backlight, you might as well say you're left in the dark.

Magic mouse is a nightmare on any site with a map, always zooming in/out when I don't intend to. Sensitivity is way too high.

>As for Apple's standard keyboards for Desktop Mac or PCs, I hope you have a lamp somewhere as they still don't have any keyboard backlight functionality. Even some third-party USB-C wireless mechanical keyboards have this and are much cheaper than Apple's keyboards.

I learned how to touch-type about 25 years ago. Backlit keyboards are superfluous if you know where the buttons are.

I don't like the multi-finger gestures on the magic mouse/ mac trackpad. I almost never have anything more than two fingers on the top of my mouse, and the effort of pulling the third finger up and adjusting my grip to do a gesture is not worth the time saved vs doing whatever action by moving the mouse around. My favourite, though, is the MX Master - the "gesture" button that you can hold and move the mouse to do gestures is extremely easy to use. does not require any additional hand movement, and can be mapped to anything you please. The gesture button has turned me from preferring the keyboard to just one handing with the mouse when I don't need to type. That the Master mouse also has two additional buttons and a horizontal scroll wheel is just the cherry on top.

Can you give me some examples of how you use the gestures in MX Master? I have been using one for users but the novelty of the gesture button wore off in a week. I love the mouse though, and would give the gesture button another try if I can figure out use cases for it.

Pressing the gesture button -> Mission Control/ Super key on GNOME

Gesture + Move Left/Right -> Switch between full screen apps on macOS / Unbound in GNOME

Gesture + Up/Down -> Switch Workspaces in GNOME / Unbound in macOS

I leave some of the slides unbound in some systems because the action doesn't suit the software, with sliding right/left not visually matching switching between workspaces in my GNOME setup, and sliding up/down not visually matching anything except Mission Control in macOS. I don't want the same gestures to be different things on different systems so I just leave them unbound.

That's generally all I need + the horizontal wheel to handle forward/back and scrolling. If there's some other use case you really like, you can set them to the ones I've unbound, or even the forward/back keys. If you're using linux, You can get logiops (https://github.com/PixlOne/logiops) and use it to map everything.

E: I realise I've been mixing up magic mouse gestures and trackpad gestures. The magic mouse doesn't need three finger gestures, but my point about having to change the grip etc. still stands, and I do prefer the logi's use of normal mouse movements for gestures.

I couldn’t use a Magic Mouse to save my life: less than two minutes of use invariably results in severe pain in the tendons on the back of my hand. Add a couple of minutes and the pain becomes excruciating.

There's an irony to Jobs being so adament that the right click button was wrong, when the minimalist Apple mouse ended up with dozens of unique gesture inputs that are far worse for discoverability.

I can't decide my sentiment towards the Magic Mouse. With my last job I had one with a MacBook Pro, and while the system integration was really good, and the function of it was fairly good, the form wasn't.

It looks great on a desk, sure, but it's not that ergonomic, and having to flip it on its back to charge it (thus disabling it), is absolutely useless.

I use a Logitech MX Master 3 nowadays, and while not quite as ground breaking as the Magic Mouse, I'd say it's overall better. The shape of it is great for my (larger-than-average) hands, and the amount of buttons (and additional gestures via modifier button) makes up for the lack of touch surface. The absolute flagship feature though is the magshift mouse wheel, which allows for ratcheted scrolling on Windows, while also removing the ratchet mechanism when you're trying to rapidly flick through a file.

They look nice, but OH GODNESS they are awful to use! And I’m not talking about the buttons, but the general ergonomics. My main issue is that the shape doesn’t embrace the hand at all which becomes painful quickly if used every day.

Exactly. The height of the mouse is less than typical ones and I had a hard time gripping the sides.

Regular ones have sides that are curved inwards as they go down to the desk, this allows you to tilt your hand without actually losing grip.

I just dont get how people like the magic mouse.

The magic mouse is exactly the right height for my (big) hands. I rest my forearm and part of my wrist on the desk, rest my index and middle fingers on the mouse surface, grip very lightly with the other fingers, and it's almost a perfect fit.

If I turn up the movement sensitivity I can move the pointer anywhere with almost no hand movement at all. Most of the weight is levered behind the wrist rather than on it so I'm using forearm muscles more than wrist tendons. The fingertip touch scrolling is super-intuitive and equally effortless.

I've used all sorts of mice from industrial Logitech blobs to gaming mice to tiny laptop mice to "ergonomic" designs, and the current magic mouse is far and away my favourite.

Unfortunately I had to use this one and the old hockey puck at work. While the form is different the pro mouse is just as bad as the puck. It gave me a lot of problems with my (meta)carpal bones.

The hockey puck is just worse because it's hard to see which direction is up.

The best mouse Apple ever made, from a comfort and ergonomic standpoint, was the ADB Mouse II [1]. This also happened to be the first mouse I ever used. It came with the Mac Performa 5200, the first computer I ever owned. Since then I’ve used a bunch of Logitech mice and most recently the trackpads on my various MacBooks.

I still miss that original one-button mouse. It was so comfortable to use and so straightforward. The operating system was designed for one-button mice, so there weren’t any context menus or anything like that. Everything was driven by the menu bar at the top of the screen or by visible buttons and toolbars to click on. This made the interface a lot more discoverable. For power users, you had keyboard shortcuts which were also very ergonomic due to the placement of the command key under the thumb, instead of the control key under the pinky.

[1] https://www.imagine41.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/apple_d...

> Regardless of what you may think of the Apple Pro Mouse, I believe that there’s something admirable about its stubbornness.

This reminds me of Porsche 911 engine placement.

Famously the 911 engine is at the back of the car which is about the worst location for it, except that Porsche are good at engineering and have persisted in making that location work very well for them.

The no button mouse might not be great on its own but it leads to the no button track pad, which I’d argue is.

Except there's not much your Porsche engineers can do about fundamental physics.

The possibility to kill yourself in a Porsche still exists, the only thing stopping you are the ESC/DSC systems which are, in all likelyhood, not made by Porsche anyway but OEM from someone like Bosch.

Turn off the ESC and given the opportunity physics will still remind you who's boss in the Porsche.

Why were Porsche so stubborn about putting the engine at the back anyway, if it’s such a bad idea?

I at least understand why Apple want a no-button mouse.

It does give them very unique handling. It's fun to drive an unstable car, and "fun to drive" is one of the main differentiators of sports cars from more mundane options.

I did a silverstone track day a few years ago in a single seater f1 style (but much slower) car with the engine at the back. It was super fun I agree, but also terrifying when I accidentally put it in 1st instead of third at the end if the straight and just instantly spun out. Luckily didn’t hit anyone or anything.

F1 cars in general are mid-engined (like Porsche Le Man cars) rather than rear engined like the 911.

So the engine is behind you but in front of the rear wheels. This is generally thought to be optimal layout for a super car.

Porsche used the mid-engine layout for the 959 for example.

Just to remind that a open wheel car or a single seat f1 style doesn't have the a rear engine like the 911, but is a middle engine car.

In fact, almost every car have a front or middle engine. The 911 is very unique in this rear placement layout.

First, to nitpick, comparative and superlative forms of unique are nonsense, something is either unique or it isn’t.

It might be pretty rare though, like rear engines cars: hillman imp, Fiat 500, etc and of course vw microbus and beetle which rather brings us back to the 911

> Just to remind that a open wheel car or a single seat f1 style doesn't have the a rear engine like the 911, but is a middle engine car.

yeah, but then with that pedantry applied the Honda S2000, BMW 3 Series, Mazda Miata, and various other cars are technically mid-engine.

FR/MR/RR is basically useless to talk about with regards to performance dynamics; HPDEs and driver coaching has taught me that 9 times out of 10 when someone mentions where their engine is sitting in the car by using FR/MR/RR , what they're really trying to get across is where they felt their center-of-mass was during the drive.

And to that point, a Formula style car might be mid-engine, but most have a suspension and aero adjusted center-of-mass that is as aft, if not worse, than any Porsche out there.

My first car was a VW Beetle. I didn't know crap about cars, physics, handling, etc. The engine needed work so I had it rebuilt and it had pretty good power (for a Bug). Then one day I was driving fast on winding roads and quickly learned about the flaws of having a rear-engined car. I was lucky to walk away from the crash, though the Bug was totaled. Since then I've always had a fear of driving on winding roads...

It’s only a bad idea for street cars because it makes them harder to drive. For performance, it’s an excellent idea. It gives you better rear wheel traction, and allows you to connect the engine directly to the rear differential. It also allows you to have a flat floor, which makes the cabin nicer, which I’m sure is something they care about.

They fact that they go very fast, and require more skill to drive at fast speeds means they end up killing more people. Porsche used to make incredible, no-compromise, road-legal track cars, with manual gearboxes and very little driver assist. But they’ve toned that down recently, and you’ll never see it from them again. The Porsche Carrera GT was probably the absolute pinnacle of supercar design. But it was very hard to drive, and got a reputation as one of the most dangerous production cars ever made. Killing quite a few people, including Paul Walker. Nobody will ever make anything like that ever again. A novice could take a Veyron around a track, but they’d probably struggle to drive a Carrera GT out of a car park.

The benefits are primarily from the better weight distribution and engine location in relation to the rear diff. The myth of fwd having superior driveability due to better traction is only real when comparing front engine to front engine, like a civic vs a mustang. With the weight in the rear, it’s the same thing in reverse. Oversteer is far more easy to correct but rwd is uncommon so the average joe may be unfamiliar.

WRT Porsche toning things down, a modern 911 turbo S is WAY faster than the Carrera GT was, and the GT3 / GT3-RS models are literally street legal road cars with minimal assists.

It’s not about how fast they are, it’s about how easy the car is to drive. A GT3 is a road car made with road car parts and road car features (even if you buy the ‘track’ add ons, or whatever they call them). It has ‘Porsche Stability Management’, a powerful driver assist, which among other things, is especially good at controlling oversteer. The Carrera GT doesn’t have that, so controlling oversteer is completely up to the driver. It also had the first production ceramic clutch, which was notoriously difficult to use. The tires and breaks of a Carrera GT also really needed to be at proper temperature to work properly.

I’ve driven both, on the street and around a track. I’m not exaggerating to say the average stick driver would struggle to start a Carrera GT and driver it a hundred feet without making the clutch scream. If you try drive fast in one, whether you drive into a tree or not is completely up to you. In a GR3 however, it’s gonna do a significant amount of that work for you.

FYI the Veyron is NOT rear engined like the 911. It's mid engined, like most super cars.[1]

That's what makes the 911 a weird and unusual car.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron

Having the center of gravity in the back allows for more traction with the back wheels. This then leads to better acceleration since you can pit down more power. This also allows one to accelerate quicker out of corners, again due to more traction. Having g the weight be there over the back wheels also means that the car will tend to oversteer rather than understeer which is preferable when driving quickly. And turn in is quicker, as theres less mass in the front, as long as there's traction of course. The 911 is also one of the most practical car of it's type since it has a large trunk in the front.

Since most of the weight of the car is on the back wheels, do it really need an aileron? I’ve heard ailerons were of discussable usefulness in general already, since they are only useful when turning and problematic in straight line (friction of air, and adding artificial weight, risk of flying), and therefore they needed to be adjusted in live. Is it just for the looks on the Porsche?

Whether or it it is “for the looks” probably depends on which particular model you’re talking about. But adding downforce always adds traction.

It only matters at high speeds. Above 120 miles per hour, they provide stability.

I don't think it's fair to say they were completely stubborn about it.

Porsche have used rear (e.g. 911), mid (e.g. 959, 917, 956) and front (e.g. 928) engine layouts over time.

The 911 is iconic though and customers like its design so they've persevered with it.

I don't think that the possibility to kill yourself in a supercar has much to do with its engine placement. If you're not a trained driver and you can't control oversteer on a RWD car with the ESC turned off, you're probably going to crash no matter where the engine is.

middle rear wheel cars are just as likely to kill you.

The handling characteristics are affected by the weight distribution. An otherwise equivalent car with more rearward weight will have a larger moment of inertia during an oversteer condition. This makes it harder to regain control once you reach the limit.

Classic 50-50 distributed vehicles like a Miata or a 3 Series are very forgiving to control once you reach the limits of rear traction, which is part of the reason these vehicle are very popular for entry level motorsports.

Apple rolled this synergy thing so many times (ipod -> iphone, iphone -> air) I wonder if this started even before that.

You could make a case that the 911 steers quicker going into a turn...

The article omitted one of the best "easter eggs" I've seen on a mouse ever: the Apple Mouse's red laser formed the pattern of a cute mouse head when held at about a 45 degree angle about 10 inches from the desk surface. And it wasn't a "oh, I kind of see it" sort of thing - it was clearly designed to have a cartoon look and was incredible attention to detail for anyone who found it.

Photo https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2006/03/3272/

TIL! I never knew about this, and I've been using these mice for about three-quarters of my life!

Fun fact: the author of this article now works at Apple in the Design team https://www.instagram.com/mnmllymnml/

And he unfortunately stopped posting to minimallyminimal. One of my favourite websites of all times.

He’s had a really interesting career, working for Microsoft on Hololens, XBox One S and Windows and worked at Tesla.

I spy an Apple Park elevator ;)

I've been an Apple user since the late 80s and from a usability point of view, I hate these mice with a passion, when I buy a new Mac, they always go in to a draw and my cheap old Logitech replaces them.

Apart from the ergonomics of how they feel in the hand, it's literally impossible for the mouse to register both left and right click simultaneously, which means if I feel like playing the occasional game, I'm stuffed.

This mouse was discontinued 15 years ago.

The mouse that came with my new 27” also can only either click left or right at any one time, and not both.

-> bin.

I know, I quite liked the innovations in my first Magic Mouse. The touch surface was pretty cool and it looked and felt gorgeous. I thought I’d try out my nice new iMac with Borderlands. Point at target, right click to zoom, the left click to.... left click... left.... WTF?

I find every modern Apple mouse super uncomfortable, and I don't think I'm alone. They are too small/flat and create hand strain.

My favorite mouse to use with a Mac these days is the Logitech G305.

https://amzn.to/3h0bqiU

Also, here's my review: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/B07CMS5Q6P/R1KU320KW6ZI3...)

I also personally like having the Magic Touchpad around as a second input device, for silent mouse motions (for calls) and for gesture support. You can have both connected nicely and if you use the paid app BetterTouchTool it serves as a nice way to have a rich input experience while retaining the precision of a high DPI mouse like the above. Another minor gripe of mine is that the Apple Bluetooth keyboard/touchpad combo from the last generation, with AA batteries rather than Lightning chargers, are better than the current generation in lots of subtle ways, so I stick with them.

The Magic Trackpad is the best "mouse" for a Mac IMO. The gestures and large size and click anywhere nature make it feel natural.

Please don't abuse HN for affiliate marketing links.

There has never been a great mouse from Apple, except maybe the old Apple II mouse. The hockey puck mouse was terrible. This mouse was terrible. How they were selected to go to production says a lot about Apple's blind sides wrt usability.

It's really fun to try to play a FPS game with an apple mouse.

(fun = impossible)

I try to avoid that term, but this is almost the definition of a fanboy: Actively ignores obvious shortcomings of a product and argues it should be loved for a non-functional detail (its marvellous look).

Yeah he’s a fanboy:

> Fun fact: the author of this article now works at Apple in the Design team (@ArmandGrillet, 2 hours ago)

Who knew The Future would be so unergonomic. I detest that mouse.

Beautiful to look at, awful to use - the polar opposite of Microsoft's Intellimouse Classic.

I would rather say it's the opposite of a vertical mouse, which is a total eyesore, but as an ageing developer I can assure you that it is ergonomically far superior to all standard (horizontal) mouse.

The current version of the microsoft intellimouse is so nice. I've got the new "classic intellimouse" at work, and I'm tempted to swap out my steelseries gaming mouse for the "pro intellimouse" at home so I can have the same feel everywhere.

Yeah I have one at work and one at home. It just looks, well, nondescript, but it fits my hand so perfectly it feels like it was tailored for me.

It's funny how these pretty, but disastorous from usability perspecive, mice get this much attention where really excelent products like Logitech's MX Master series isn't even known by the geeks singing praises to Apple.

I'm using Logitech mice for a very very long time and their G700 and M705 are indestructible work horses.

I also have a Magic Mouse for My MBP but, except it's touch surface, it's worlds apart.

I wore away all of the rubber off the sides of my $28 G300 mouse before the button started to fail. Comfortable, cheap, amazing.

My only qualm with the MX Master S2 was poor Linux support. Everything else grew on me.

I'm not really embarrassed to admit that I didn't know how to use my Magic Mouse for the first year I had it. The first generation was lighter, and my skin didn't slide due to the texture of the glass so I didn't even realize it was touch. I still scroll from the touchpad with my left hand or use hotkeys.

Love your tools. If you don't, find ones you do.

My MX does everything I want under KDE. About 2 years ago the ability to tell me (and warn me) about my mouse battery level just appeared. It was quite nice to have an update that brought changes you wanted.

You know, the only features it's missing are the thumb "gestures" and the continuous screen, which are both software provided.

So I guess I don't mean that it's lacking functionality, but that Logitech doesn't support it's software on Linux.

I didn’t know those were features. Good to know though. I have the first generation, it’s also been a long time since I’ve used it on windows.

I have a Magic Mouse and an Mx.

I prefer Magic Mouse on my Mac. Actually I mostly use use my trackpad.

I think Apple has nailed their gestures, which makes me prefer their pointing devices over third party.

So yes, MX is known by Apple sheeps.

How do folks here fix the drastic scrolling and acceleration that seems to come with using any mouse _except_ apple ones on their mac?

Get a mouse with an unlockable scroll wheel like the G502 and it works fine.

The MX Series is heavily advertised and omni-present on the internet. I’m not sure that I would say it’s a little-known or obscure mouse.

It appears in the top results on Google for “buy mouse”. The Apple mouse does not appear for me at all.

It also appears in the top YouTube results for “buy mouse”. I only thought I would add this tidbit because I found it fairly disappointing that the MX Master series (which I am not a fan of) was basically the only result that appeared when searching for a mouse. It was disappointing to see how little competition there seemed to be in the space.

It's a tired meme that Apple users simply aren't aware of the wider world outside of whatever Apple makes. Many people choose them over what others might call "really excellent" because they value things that you don't.

It looks like just buy from single favorite brand is common strategy.

That stupid little scroll ball was a piece of junk. It was just like an old mouseball: rollers got all gunked up and stopped working very quickly. Even faster than a real mouse ball because yer dirty finger was rubbing on it all the time.

Ah, Minimally Minimal. I used to read the shit out of his blog, but the posts became rarer and rarer until he quit it entirely. He (Andrew Kim) worked on the xbone S and then at Tesla for a while, no idea what he's up to now, but his blog holds a special place in my heart.

He's been working at Apple [0] ever since December 2018.

[0] https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/17/18144421/apple-designer-...

I vividly remember an elderly customer who had the wireless version positioned upside down and was totally confused by the cursor movement. He thought something was wrong with the computer and asked me for help. I 180ied the mouse and he was embarrassed as one can get. We parted silently and we never shared a word about this with anyone. Good times!

HA! Classic!

I once had a support call for a customer whose mouse had stopped working. I told him that I get a lot of calls and I was sorry to ask but: "is it plugged in?"

Customer, who was pretty technical, was very embarrassed.

Apple, great products, terrible mice. Particularly this one. And the hockey puck one. And the Magic Mouse. Surely there was a good one at some point (maybe the ADB mouse?) but, I've been using third-party mice for too long now...

The Apple Pro Mouse -- the transparent bar of soap -- was basic but acceptable.

I must be an outlier because I love the Magic Mouse. I usually lay my whole arm flat on my desk. Since the mouse doesn’t cause my wrist to arc I don’t get carpal tunnel. Big win there.

I also rely heavily on swiping between desktops and I find the mouse works great for that. My one gripe would be the charging port placement being on the bottom. Charging up to a days charge doesn’t take very long but it is annoying to have to stop coding to charge it.

I too prefer the Magic Mouse, precisely because of it’s integrations with the operating system.

I’ve also found that for perhaps those who want (most) of those integrations you can replicate it with a multi button mouse (like those sold from Logitech or Microsoft) remapping those buttons to actions using either System Settings or in more advanced cases Hammerspoon[0][1]

[0] https://www.hammerspoon.org/

[1] Sole reason I learned Lua Initially was hammerspoon

Worst mouse I ever tried. But at least they learned for it and current Magic Mouse is a delight to use (on macOS).

At the company I work for everyone gets a MagicMouse. The pattern is that after 2-3 months of usage everyone gives up and switches to one of those Logitech MX mouses - so did I. MagicMouse is so goddamn uncomfortable to use if you ever touched a good comfortable mouse. It is now resting in the back of my shelf.

The Magic Mouse is basically an RSI you can buy.

You are holding it wrong TM. But seriously, I realised that I need to hold it in a way that is different from all other mice I ever used.

I ditched it too but for the track pad, I seem to be in the minority here but I find the MacBook pro track pad more than enough for navigating the OS and only really falls short for gaming.

They are really beautiful mouses. I own all except the Apple pro mouse (which is identical to Apple mouse). Loved the clack clicking of the Apple mouse and what a design piece it still is. The Mighty Mouse was an improvement in usability but looked bland in comparison, and the ball would gunk up. Magic Mouse is perfect. But it’s very common to see hate for it. I loved that design era at Apple. White and transparent plastic like the cube, first iPod, lamp iMac! Iconic.

I loved the Apple Pro Mouse and the Apple Mouse back in the day because Apple finally capitulated and supposed a damn right mouse button. I have never understood the resistance to that — even on Mac trackpads since the 2000s, control click is still the default option. The first thing I do on any Apple machine is set it to recognize the lower right corner of the trackpad as the right pointer button. Or on a Magic Mouse 2, the right top region of the mouse.

The ergonomics old the Apple Mouse/Pro Mouse never really stood out to me, though I was a teenager when it was introduced and other than loving my Microsoft Natural Keyboard (that I sadly killed when a poorly-supported wax cup from a fast food restaurant leaked all over it...good lesson to 17 year old me), I was very much form over function as long as the basic function existed (which means the terrible Apple puck mouse and the Mighty Mouse were both dead to me).

I don’t know if I could or would want to use an old Apple Pro Mouse today but I definitely would like one on display next to a G4 iMac.

omg that was the shittiest thing out there. So many accidental clicks.

Also, the magic mouse with it's horizontal gestures are insane. I don't understand how some people I know like it so much.

Apple trackpads are king :-) And I'd love to have a keyboard+trackpad combination, basically the bottom case of the macbook. Somehow the positioning of a separate keyboard and magic trackpad doesn't quite work.

I would also love this! In WFH I've been trying out some types of work with an iPad on a gooseneck (to keep it at an ergonomic height) and a Magic Keyboard/Trackpad combo on a pad on my lap arranged a bit like a Macbook but with the trackpad lower (in z, not y).

It works well, except MacOS doesn't enable palm rejection with standalone peripherals since they expect you to put the trackpad beside the keyboard on a desk, so I end up with accidental taps far too frequently.

Yeah I bought a Magic Mouse 2 earlier this year and regretted it instantly. Apple need to stop thinking outside of the box when it comes to mice.

You’re right about the positioning as well. If you have a full size Apple keyboard the trackpad is too far away always. If you have the compact layout Apple keyboard it’s too much of a compromise with keys.

Best outcome for me was turfing the lot and the Mac and getting a Logitech mouse and a TKL layout cherry MX red based keyboard. So much better.

I’m sorry but the Apple input devices are inferior even to the lowest grade no brand stuff from Aliexpress at this point.

I'm happy with the compact Apple keyboards in general, but when I got an iMac Pro at work I wanted to try out its full-sized keyboard since it is nice to have all of those extra keys. To keep the trackpad closer, I decided to put it on the left.

I normally use my right, so it took a few days to get used to it, but I quickly became fluent and the arrangement works much better. I also like it since it balances out my hands a bit more instead of doing absolutely everything with my right.

The standard Model M layout is a left-handed keyboard layout. It was a right-handed keyboard layout when the Model M came out in 1984 and very few PC users had a mouse or any kind of pointing device. But for over 25 years it's been a left-handed layout and no-one has done anything in response, because so much of computing is now a cargo cult.

- Apple Laptop $3k

- Apple Monitor $1.5k

- Microsoft Mouse $5

Doesn't matter how pretty or expensive Mac gear gets, the mouse will always be a good 'ol fashioned cheapo one.

- Apple Monitor stand $1k

In contrast to the mice, which I've never really felt comfortable using, the Apple Trackpad has been one of the best input devices I have ever owned. Perhaps benefitting from all the UI/UX research into laptop inputs, swipes and gestures...

Magic mouse 2 is the worst mouse I have used since I stopped using mice with the ball inside.

It's too shallow for my hands

It has a rough edge around the back when it should be smooth, the cheap plastic top doesn't line up perfectly with the metallic base.

And does tell you, you are low on battery until the day you need to recharge and you can't use it and recharge!!

It is the epitomy of bad design.

But that said I like the look of the older mice!

Meh, I love my magic mouse 2!!

I honestly don’t see a purpose for a mouse when you have a state of the art, not yet surpassed trackpad. Of course it is mostly regarding the MacBooks, not when you’re using an iMac or Mac Pro even though the wireless versions are also a joy to use, except for the delay you get when you’re used to a built in trackpad

Using a trackpad permanently seems like a recipe for RSI, at least I will have pain in my hand for a day or so if I use the trackpad for more than a few hours.

Are you for serious now?

Ok, try to log in to app.sketchup.com and play around with it. For instance, try holding the mouse wheel button and move the mouse around while doing it, to pan.

on a trackpad you just pan with two fingers.

While holding middle mouse button?

Or panning while scrolling up/down at the same time?

Can you do any precision work with the trackpad, though?

Comes down to personal preference. I liked the touch functionality much more than i disliked shallowness and rough edges. It was very much shit for gaming though.

Same for me. It's especially stark if you compare it to something like Logitech's MX Master 2S, which just naturally slips into your hand, has enough of weight for each move to feel deliberate, has great button response and can be charged while in use.

Thank you, how long have you used it for?

I'm always distrustful of fancy looking mice but I read a list of the features and it looks great

I've been using an MX Master for the past 5 years now, and it's the best mouse I've ever used.

Nothing is perfect though, and here are some flaws:

- The battery is not properly user-replaceable (you'd need to peel the feet off to dismantle and plop in a new one). It's a lithium battery so obviously degrades over time.

- The logitech software is necessary to configure the gestures (you also need it if you want to change the scroll ratchet behaviour). The software is a little bit annoying and autoupdates, not sure what you can do if you're a linux user.

- The gesture button (which is hidden under the thumb-rest side of the mouse) has to be pressed _down_ to activate, which I still find a little awkward.

- Bluetooth on macs can be spotty (reconnects every hour or so on my macbook, which loses the cursor for a couple of second) - the dongle is more reliable, but there's only a USB-A dongle.

It's also not cheap and there's no left-handed option.

The 2S is just a slightly upgraded model with a bigger battery.

Regarding setting scroll wheel settings on Linux, if you set them on a Windows machine, the mouse should remember them, even if you switch to a different machine.

I also swapped the gesture and top button, so pressing down with my thumb switches between free-scrolling and detent mode and I use my index finger for gestures.

Hmm... years? (I've used previous generation MX mice before that which have similar form).

I always found it funny when watching Jobs' Macworld reveals to hear him gush about new mouse designs as being the best ever. I believe even one iteration of the "hockey puck" got this kind of treatment. Everyone knew it was baloney, but because the other new hardware was usually so interesting/good at these events, people generally didn't dwell on his mouse claims.

In recent years, the wireless Apple mouse which had to be recharged by inserting a USB cable into the base (thereby rendering it temporarily useless) surely takes the cake for form over function craziness.

And after years of using apple mice to the point the cord would eventually break and where I always had to disable the side buttons because I just kept pressing them by mistake i just bought a generic two button mouse for 10€ that is a pleasure to use, a lot more ergonomic and that has already lasted twice the time any apple mouse I have ever had.

One thing it will never be able to do is to look that good on a photograph.

Well, if you're looking for an elegant mouse, this one looks pretty good: https://www.amazon.de/Logitech-Gaming-Maus-Hero-Sensor-progr...

This is kind of making me want to get an old translucent-shell mouse and paint the inner shell with some iridescent color so I have a pretty little shiny thing on my desk.

Though really I never use a mouse except when I'm playing some game that's built around one, and they always want multiple buttons; I'm an artist and I use my Wacom tablet for everything. Much better on the wrist.

Recently got myself a Logitech Pebble. I've found it "practically minimal" - it does the job, it's cute, better than Apple's mice in some aspects.

https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/pebble-m350-wireless-...

I was burned a lot back in the 90s by Logitech's piss poor drivers. Has the situation improved much since?

Its generally fine and just works on windows, usually on linux too.

Love their trackpads. But their mice... not so much. I have a tiny travel mouse that has 4 buttons, scroll mouse and much better acceleration and surface detection and was bought for likely half the price. That travel mouse is deadly in games. The apple mice? Not as accurate.

But they look good and that is what Apple were aiming at.

I bought a pro mouse 2 years ago and used it until few months ago. The biggest reason for giving up this nice looking thing is that, people no longer create UI that are one-button-friendly, especially when it comes to scrolling.

The follow up mouse with the scroll ball was much better - scrolling is useful, and it could be configured to have left and right buttons making it useful for people who know what a mouse is :)

The scroll ball on the Mighty Mouse would always gunk up and was a pain in the ass to clean

Good design is the elegant marriage of form and function.

This mouse has a nice form.

I have a white one, and even though option-clicking was a pain, I sort of missed it when I moved to the new Bluetooth Apple Mouse.

The design and aesthetics were just _so_ good, like a sugar drop.

I actually quite liked the Puck version that came with the first Bondi Blue iMac — Not super precise, but great for smaller hands.

I agree. I aas a kid around that time and I loved the puck mouse.

Looks aside, I never liked them much, somehow too light. I prefer the external trackpad, it's also pretty and not flimsy.

I prefer using an Evoluent vertical mouse on the Mac, though the most recent OS patch broke their software (for now).

Funny so many people seem to like this aesthetic - I think it's ugly. The clear plastic case doesn't do it any favors. Whatever it gains from not having visible buttons it loses from the ugly floating grips on the side. It turns it from a sleek, continuous object with curved lines into a jagged, jarring device.

Of all these mice, the Magic Mouse (1st gen) is the best - but all of them, without exception, have one flaw: they are designed for people with tiny hands.

Microsoft's original IntelliMouse however? Just perfect - but unfortunately wired...

Many of us prefer a wired mouse and keyboard! Faster to wake up, more reliable, don’t need recharging.

The best thing about going wired-only is that it cuts down the selection to more reliable stuff when looking for a replacement. There's a bitter note to it because I'd really like to replace my bulky Natural Ergonomic Keybard with a Sculpt. But there is no wired version of the Sculpt.

I thought this article was satire until I read the comments

Apple still designs for style and upcharging over usability.

Not sure why people/Apple marketing insist on Apple products making them more productive. I can't agree on iPhone and I didn't find any speed increases on a macbook.

Just because you haven't been more productive doesn't mean other people aren't. Trackpad / mouse gestures are so convenient and useful for me that multitasking is so much more straightforward when I don't have the extra monitors.

It may surprise you to learn that people are free to use whatever tech they get the most benefit from...

> Let go of your hate. Accept what it is, let go of what it was, and embrace what it has become.

I particularly like the sign off.

Almost everything about Apple is driven by style instead of substance. That's one of the reasons why Apple is so successful - people are shallow.

Saying people are shallow is probably not wrong per se, but maybe a somewhat pessimist perspective. For example, you could also conclude that beautifully made products are simply more fun to use.

Style is a part of the substance of an object; the two are not in conflict. Apple is simply one of the few companies that cares about style enough to make sacrifices in order to achieve it. And that's something I really like about Apple gear.

> Steve Jobs was shown six different models of mice to evaluate. But Jobs was instead drawn to a seventh design, an unfinished model with the buttons yet to be built in. Jobs thought the buttonless design was brilliant, and the design team played along, pretending that it was their intention from the beginning.

Oh my god, what a hopelessly toxic work environment! I just expect these designers were paid really well, for they had to bear with the assholery of such a callous boss.

Is it toxic that Steve Jobs liked the partially completed design they left out? Or are you just trying to cash in to the "Jobs is toxic" meme by finding the one mention of him interacting with the design team in the article?

> Is it toxic that Steve Jobs liked the partially completed design they left out?

No. But the way that the story is written, it seems that the designers where terrified of Jobs wrath if they told that he had chosen an unfinished prototype. Why would have them lied to him, otherwise?

"Oh, you actually liked, that? Yeah, of course you did, that was my idea all along, I'm a genius" is a fairly common trope.

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