Toilets in a Medieval Castle (2018) | Hacker News Reader

Toilets in a Medieval Castle (2018)

ancient.eu

113 pointsInsanity68 comments

-No history of medieval toilets is complete without reference to Erasmus von Lueg, 15th-century robber baron and lord of the Slovene Predjama castle.

He allegedly met his maker while relieving himself - having made a nuisance of himself to the Habsburgs, they laid siege to the castle to no avail -as there was a hidden passageway which let the besieged come and go more or less as they pleased.

The solution? Bribe a servant into lighting a lamp in a window when Erasmus went to the latrine prior to bed - a latrine the Habsburgs had aimed their cannon at in the daytime.

The rest, as they say, is (apocryphal) history.

People have been assassinated while taking a shit and assassin waited below.

- King Edmund II of England, Stabbed from under a toilet seat while defecating.

- Jaromír, Duke of Bohemia, Stabbed with a spear from under a toilet seat while defecating.

- Godfrey IV, Duke of Lower Lorraine, Was assassinated while using a toilet.

- Wenceslaus III of Bohemia, Murdered with a spear while sitting in the garderobe.

- Uesugi Kenshin, Allegedly assassinated while using a toilet. "it is also speculated that he was victim of one of the most famous ninja assassinations, by a ninja concealed in the cesspool beneath the latrine at Kenshin's camp with a short spear or sword."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_died_on_the...

How about the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_latrine_disaster ?

This is the history that was explained to us on the visit to Predjama via their official audio tour. Nonetheless it's a fascinating place and a pleasure to visit [1]. Even better there is a breathtaking cave system not 10 miles away that's very accessible to the public and part of the same tourist organization. [2] One neat thing the guides were proud of is Jackie Chan's visit to the castle while filming Armour of God [3]. They also said he broke his leg while doing a stunt on one of the stone staircases, but I couldn't find any written evidence of this; instead he sustained a much more serious injury elsewhere.

[1] https://www.postojnska-jama.eu/en/predjama-castle/

[2] https://www.postojnska-jama.eu/en/

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour_of_God_(film)

This probably is just a urban legend type story. Or do you have evidence to point at?

Even the Wikipedia page on Erasmus of Lueg states there is no evidence to back this up.

-Thus 'allegedly' and 'apocryphal' - to the best of my knowledge, no reliable sources back this ever happening - but it is, you'll have to admit, a wonderful tale...

That's why the they said it's apocryphal

Dammit. Too late to edit now.

Would be quite surprised if 15th century artillery had any accuracy near that - And also if they did have such accuracy it's highly likely that the siege would have ended lot sooner.

Do you remember the show Modern Marvels on the History channel? Back when it was about actual history and not reality tv...

My favorite episode was on bathrooms. Did you know that during large gatherings at the Palace of Versailles people would relieve themselves in hallways, stairways, and even in the gardens? Or that dining room seats in medieval Germany had holes with chamber pots underneath so that people could go while they ate?

I miss Modern Marvels.

What’s even about relieving themselves in the gardens, as compared to inside the palace?

Do I miss some knowledge about French palace customs?

Yeah, if I was visiting Versailles today, I might discreetly relieve myself in the gardens, but I'd stop short of soiling the great halls.

why not fertilize the flowers while youre at it

What’s even about relieving themselves in the gardens, as compared to inside the palace?

Maybe he's a horticulturalist? Whizzing on the vegetation can really ruin a garden. Just ask anyone with a neighbor who doesn't curb their dog.

This 1974 PBS documentary, "The Natural History of the Water Closet: A Documentary Cantata" [1], is a good musical documentary about the toilet.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJcFO_xF1fI

This 1981 Mel Brooks documentary, "History of the World, Part I" [1], is a good comedic documentary about the portable toilet.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OWMB3ewpNM

That is why they are the masters of perfume. Had to overcome the stench!

edit: While other, long forgotten cultures had https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanitation_of_the_Indus_Valley...

I mean, I guess back then there were no port-a-potties, and probably didn’t have earthmovers to dig latrines fast (though with planning they could have). So from that PoV, I can see that happening —It still happens at overcrowded concert arenas.

In the article:

>Walls were sometimes whitewashed with a coating of lime-plaster which maximised the light coming from the small window and because lime kills off bacteria. //

Surely not. Bacteria weren't part of the mindset of UK castle builders!?

I'd expect there right about making it lighter in the garderobe, and possibly over time it was noticed it made the room less smelly?

You don't have to know the why to appreciate lime plasters stay clean/grow less mold in dank environments through experience.

I think even this gives too little credit in a way. Why were the walls whitewashed? To grow less mold and generally stay cleaner. That's the only why for doing the action, and it seems to have been perfectly well understood. The only thing the modern biochemical understanding does is tell us why this worked. At best this can help us find more effective methods, but it doesn't really add anything to the practice. Put another way, if you were put back in time, what would the most effective means of accomplishing this goal be? Probably the same lime whitewash actually used.

Doesn't "because" say they knew why. If it just said "which" instead of because then I'd agree with you.

Perhaps there was some mediaeval theory relating lime and pestilence?

A lot of things were done in h the past despite people not knowing why. The because should be read as a retrospective reason. The originators of the practice at have just found it dealt with odor and so they did it, in retrospect we can add the actual reason it helped.

I don't see a problem with the author using a more modern terminology for "cause" than would have existed at the time, to describe what anyone working with lime plasters appreciates on a basic level; the stuff stays exceptionally white and clean.

Personally I don't like their saying just that it kills off bacteria. It's an antimicrobial/fungicide in general because of its elevated Ph.

I'd prefer the article take the opportunity to educate me about the practical value of lime plaster than restrict itself to the limited education of medeivil minds.

You might not see the problem, but it's factually inaccurate because there is an attribution error.

Oddly in this case where the author could have made a correct attribution he used the word "which" which does not ascribe a cause. If he had simply switched "which" and "because" we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, because the sentence wouldn't have been false. It makes me wonder if the author swapped around the rest of the sentence after writing it originally.

I don't think anyone is suggesting reducing the information content. Even wanting more is just fine and dandy, but the proper way to do that would be to correctly attribute the reasoning of the time, and then add something along the lines of "which we know today does $x."

Either way, I'm glad we can agree that it's important to be precise with words. Thanks for making my day a little brighter.

The sentence is mangled and syntactically incorrect anyway - there's no other reason before the "and". Maybe it originally said "and kills off bacteria" before a "because" was added during the editing process.

The other reason before the "and" was that it maximised light reflection (and hence ambient light levels in the room).

But that reason is stuck in a descriptive clause modifying "lime-plaster" or "a coating of lime-plaster".

You wouldn't write "Walls were sometimes whitewashed with a coating of lime-plaster which was white and because lime kills off bacteria." The longer sentence makes it less jarring until you try to parse it carefully, but still very poor style.

I don't think I'm being some kind of prescripivist grammar Nazi here: the rest of the piece is written reasonably professionally and I'm sure the editors would fix that if they spotted it.

I'd like to know why this isn't standard today.

I don't like the typical moldy latex paint.

>I'd like to know why this isn't standard today.

Get a quote for paint and extrapolate out to the effective hourly wage of the painter.

That's why.

Paint is easy to clean; plaster is porous and will stain easily.

Reminds me of the story of the dwarf toilet Ninja, who put the ass into assassination: https://jpninfo.com/47201

If anyone is interested in medieval-y topics the Shadiversity channel run by Shad M. Brooks is pretty good:

* https://www.youtube.com/user/shadmbrooks/videos

He's done a few videos on castles specifically.

Everyone should give Shad a follow. Dude is planning on building a medieval experience park on land he've recently purchased and it's going to be fun to follow his journey.

> besiegers used just such a latrine shaft in 1203-4 CE to gain entry to Chateau Gaillard

Wonder who got picked for that job

The Wikipedia article mentions that a solider named Ralph found the shaft, no word on whether he did the climbing though.

> Following this, Philip ordered a group of his men to look for a weak point in the castle. They gained access to the next ward when a soldier named Ralph found a latrine chute in use through which the French could clamber into the chapel.

correct term is that Ralph "got the shaft"

Someone who pissed the troops leader last month.

Reminds me stories from WWII about kids in camps hiding themselves in outside toilettes during sweeps to survive.

Dunno, but it sounds pretty shitty.

> "Watch and learn, son, or you'll be passing wrenches for the rest of your life".

https://yosefk.com/blog/the-cardinal-programming-jokes.html

The word "garderobe" (Old French "garder", to watch/guard + "robe", clothing) is interesting, because it's the modern word for a wardrobe in many European languages. According to Merriam-Webster, the word came into English in the 15th century and was primarily used to "provide English speakers with a word for a room or closet in which to store clothing". From there, it was then used for private bedrooms/bathrooms, until the word went out of fashion in the 19th century and today is only seen to refer to exactly what this article is about, historical bathrooms/toilets in castles.

me (sitting in the toilet): let's read something interesting on hackernews. Hackernews: What about an article on ancient toilets?

> then called a privy

Such things were still called a privy in my childhood.

A picture or two would have been helpful to spice up the story.

http://www.stephenbiesty.co.uk/galleries_cross_sections_cast...

Stephen Biesty's cross sections are my reference for most engineering.

I still have that book. As fascinating today as it was as a child.

Detail, clarity and humour. Simply gorgeous.

There are pictures in the article?

It looks like the article attempts to embed images in different formats for different browsers, but the source images aren't of the image type they expect which results in broken images for some browsers.

    <picture>
        <source srcset="/img/r/p/500x600/8862.jpg.webp?v=1599098401" type="image/webp">
        <source srcset="/img/r/p/500x600/8862.jpg.avif?v=1599098401" type="image/avif">
        <source srcset="/img/r/p/500x600/8862.jpg?v=1599098401" type="image/jpeg">
        <img loading="lazy" src="/img/r/p/500x600/8862.jpg?v=1599098401" alt="Medieval Castle Latrine" class="in_text_image" width="500" height="375"/>
    </picture>

Firefox and Google Chrome both select the image with the image/webp content type, and those URLs do appear to be WebP images.

Safari selects the images with the image/jpeg content type, but those URLs appear to point to AVIF images (i.e., image data encoded using AV1 and stored in an HEIF container). AVIF is only supported by Google Chrome. This results in the images appearing as broken placeholders in Safari.

Thanks for that. I'm using Safari on macOS and got no images in the article - the ads work flawlessly though. Clicking on them works. I assumed the site had been Hackernews'd

Also didn't work for me on iPhone/Safari.

They don‘t load on iPhone.

Also not on iPad, but they do load, on a stand-alone page, if you click on them.

Nor on Safari, on macOS.

If they don’t show on the page, click the “placeholders” for a page showing the image.

https://www.google.com/search?q=castle+toilet&tbm=isch works in my bubble

One of the top images for me is a Roman communal toilet, fyi.

AIR I've only ever seen single occupancy toilets in UK castles?

Christianity: Be ashamed of your naked body at all times.

Modern American Evangelicals: Be ashamed of your naked body at all times.

Christianity: include a whole book about romance and sex in your sacred text (the Song of Songs).

I really wish people would read the Bible before opining on what Christianity says.

Speaking of the שִׁיר הַשִּׁירִים, a conspiracy theory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24341781

Are Baptists considered Evangelical? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23591306