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Comment by twic | Hacker News Reader

Americans are absolutely, utterly, unable to imagine that the way they do things is not the best. It's incredible to watch from outside.

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Americans are over 300 million people, and like Europe we are not homogenous.

And many Americans believe European healthcare, education, and infrastructure are far superior to the U.S.

The problem is that despite Europe being far more efficient at health, education, and infrastructure spending it also has a wide range of policies. So it's difficult to determine which policies are driving the increase in efficiency and which aren't.

There’s no such thing as “European healthcare”. European countries (and I’m going to ignore Brexit and include the UK) approach provision of healthcare in a unique way. For example, the UK has the NHS, Switzerland has insurance mandates, and France has strict regulation of private insurance companies.

Yet all of Europe has one thing in common: people don't go bankrupt over surgeries because 99.99% of people have an insurance.

Yeah this was my point.

What does homogeneity have to do with anything?

>Americans are absolutely, utterly, unable to imagine that the way they do things is not the best. It's incredible to watch from outside.

Treats Americans like they all have the same beliefs, i.e. homogenous.

Please refrain from nationalist slander. It's unproductive and against site rules.

Europeans are utterly unable to create new global enterprises at the rate of America and China, apart from a few odd balls like Spotify. Different places optimize for different things, for better and worse.

> Europeans are utterly unable to create new global enterprises at the rate of America and China,

Having a homogeneous, single-language, single market of 350 million, and 1.4 billion people, respectively, is an enormous competitive advantage that Europe cannot replicate, without doing away with sovereignty and brainwashing ~80% of its population.

And despite all that, the quality of life of the average European is pretty good.

Counterpoint - Israel. Tiny country, unique language, way more success in tech and VC per capita than Europe.

And how much success does it have making things sold to consumers? (Which is where the common market is most important.)

I don't think I have a single thing in my home made by an Israeli brand (And I don't use Waze, and either way, it's Google's now). I have quite a few European-branded items, though.

Europe is a collection of small countries. It's not coincidence that the economic powerhouse of Europe, Germany, is the most populated country. And since this is going quite off topic here is some wild idea: let's keep just a fraction of the current universities, like say 5 or 10%, force talent in Europe to concentrate in a few places, force mixing across nations. Actually this is already encouraged somehow but let's be more brutal. Just thinking out loud maybe an stupid idea.

Whose fault is it that Europe has many small countries instead of being dominated by Germany the?

If the EU hadn't stopped its continent-scale genocidal domination, it could be on par with USA and China for linguiatic and economic unity.

Europeans are absolutely, utterly, unable to imagine that things they pay a percentage of all income earned, over their entire life, are not free. It's incredible to watch from outside.

CAs tax rate when you factor in federal tax is comparable to the EU and we get none of the benefits.

> CAs tax rate when you factor in federal tax is comparable to the EU

Nominal rates might be, but tax burden is not. California tax burden is well under 15% GDP, and federal collections in the state are a tiny bit higher than state tax revenues, together still under 30% tax burden. EU overall tax burden is over 40% of GDP.

How do these numbers look when you count health care/insurance cost for CA instead of only for EU?

> How do these numbers look when you count health care/insurance cost for CA instead of only for EU?

Then you are counting the cost of the thing you are complaining about not getting for your supposedly-equivalent taxes in order to try to justify the claim that the taxes are equal.

Count school fees and student debt too - public schools in most of the EU are good enough that you don’t have to go private the way the US does.

You don't need to go private in the US, either, that's largely a status display and a mechanism for non-educational social benefits more than an actual educational benefit; like the difference between outcomes in different public schools outcomes, the vast majority of difference between education outcomes in private and public schools is explained by factors outside of the school attended that determine educational outcomes (socioeconomic status, parental educational attainment, engaged parenting, etc.)

30% federal plus 15% state is also higher than 40%, isn‘t it?

GP is saying 15% state plus 15+epsilon% federal < 40%

I agree, that state is a mess. I happen to live in state with low taxes and affordable school.

Perhaps the european model is better overall, or perhaps there are other complications. Regardless, the debate is not "free" vs "pay private companies". Both models have costs and benefits.

Which state is this? Just curious. Most of us in the Bay Area are here due to our jobs, not because we love the place.

I think they are well able to image that, but it's paid as part of income taxes so the hit when they're not earning isn't as catastrophic.

Also, consider that EU tax collection is comparable (and often lower) than US tax collection, despite not EU not having to separately pay for education and health...

I don't disagree. I am not making a judgement of which is better overall, just that neither alternative is free, or even close to that.

When you consider the totality of costs, inside and outside taxes, European healthcare and education is significantly cheaper for comparable or better outcomes.

See other comments. That may be the case, but it's wrong to frame it as "free" vs "paid".

I'm not framing it as free vs paid. I'm framing it as public vs private. The public sector just does some things better.

No one in Europe is under the illusion that public services are free. This is a complete strawman. But they are much more cost-effective than the alternative, a lot of the time, and provide universal services to everyone and help maintain the social fabric of a society.

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