ATCs have a reputation for never losing their cool and that really shines through here:
“Tower, there’s a guy in a jetpack flying outside.”
“Copy. To your left or your right?”
“Tower, there’s a guy in a jetpack flying outside.”
“Copy. To your left or your right?”
It was surreal listening to them talk about the catastrophe but all while maintaining a total sense of calm.
Sometimes I put them on as working background audio, it’s tremendously soothing.
I've always loved Kranz'(?) comment even more than the moment of first contact itself. As if to say "Stop cashing out on one historic achievement and work with us to make many more".
https://www.wired.com/story/apollo-11-mission-out-of-control...
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer-supported_cooperative...
[1] http://www.academia.edu/download/48677152/Collaboration_and_...
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/05/reagan-fires-11-00...
this air traffic controller strike occurred in 1981
In 1955, Congress had made such strikes punishable by fines or a one-year jail term
a law the U.S. Supreme Court upheld in 1971
You don't like it? Then don't take the job. Take a job where you do have the ability to go out on strike.
When you simply cater to union-protected municipal employees, you wind up with the following, discussed on HN twice in the last day:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24350022
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24342828
We found truck drivers loaded up with $262,898; city painters making $270,190; firefighters earning $316,306; and plumbing supervisors cleaning up $348,291 every year. One deputy sheriff earned $574,595 last year – including $315,896 in overtime
All paid for by tax dollars.
Those pampered government employees up here with their unions and pensions and benefits. It's awful. All they do is make our country work. If only we could get rid of them all and let private enterprise take over.
Think of how much better our country would be if we scrapped public transit and let Uber and Lyft take over everything.
Likewise, we could get rid of our ridiculously terrible public health care and adopt a sane model where the market provides. After all, markets mean efficiencies, that's why Americans pay less for healthcare, and get better outcomes than socialist hell-holes like Canada and Germany and the Nordics.
If taxation is theft, we should not only be able to fire people who are paid with our taxes, we should be able to jail them as accessories to the crime, and make them stay there until they pay back every ill-gotten cent.
I have spoken.
Then again, I guess braythwayt's comment[0] is real-world proof that we're not really dealing with a sane job market, so I'm clearly missing something crucial in my line of thought here.
More like 70-180, and then the potential for significant overtime as well.
Plus you're a federal employee, so the benefits tend to be quite good and make up for a lower salary.
http://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/...
"On 9/11, I was listening to Ch. 9. I was on a flight out of ORD to AZ (757) seated in 5F. We had just taken off and where climbing to cruise. A flight out of Rockford, IL was squeezing between us and the UA in front of us. I watched as he lined up to get on the highway westbound. Then, abruptly, the Rockford flight called ATC and requested immediate clearance to return to home. ATC responded with some quick direction and asked if they were experiencing trouble. No, just directed to return home by company pronto. Hmmm, strange I thought.
Then the UA in front of us requested emergency clearance back to ORD. Loooong pause from ATC. Now, this is Chicago Center air space. There are no pauses. Certainly not 30-40 seconds of dead air. Hmm, man that is weird, I thought. Then like a starters pistol went off, the comm light up. Another plane req. clearance, then another, another.... boom, boom, boom. Nothing from ATC. I nudged the guy next to me and said put on Ch. 9. He could see by the expression on my face, I was serious.
ATC got on the air and started by saying this was going to go quick and pilots needed to listen up. "Protocol responses are not required, just do exactly as I say quickly". Then it began. "UA ###, turn right heading blah, blah expect Springfield airport. SWA ###, turn left heading blah, blah expect Rockford. Delta ###...." This went on for about 3 solid minutes before I rang the bell for the FA who was passing out breakfast. Our number had not yet been called. The FA came by and I said "We are all going back to O'Hare, they are landing every plane in the sky. What is going on?!?" She looked at me in disbelief and kind of leaned down to look out the window. I could see that she was about to start to tell me not to worry about it when we pitched right at about 45*s. It was so quick it nearly dumped the FA in my lap.
Her expression changed quickly. I could see she knew that was no turn you make in a 757 under normal conditions. She said, I will be right back and picked up the comm. She went flush. Not saying a word, not "ok", not "goodbye", not "I understand"... nothing, she hung up the phone. I don't know why I remember that she did not respond so vividly in my mind but it took the whole thing up a notch for me. I knew she thought this was very serious and was scared. She walked right back to me, scooped up my tray and said in a voice full of authority, "Pull up your chair, put away your tray table and buckle up, now. We are landing in a few minutes. The pilot will be on with more instructions in a few minutes." I was frozen. In the ten steps it took her to get from the phone to me, her whole demeanor changed from shocked to pissed.
By this time, ATC comm on ch. 9 had been cut off. We were pitching left and right, then right and left and descending fast. It was about 5 minutes before the pilot came on and said "Ladies and gentlemen, please listen very carefully, We have been instructed by the FAA to land immediately. There has been a security breach in the system and we will be on the ground in Chicago in a few minutes. Listen carefully to the FAs instructions and do as they as say please." click. Huh!?! Instructed by the FAA? Not ATC... FAA!! Whaaa?!? Security breach in "the system"? What does that mean? Did some guy run through the check point at the airport? Now, I was scared.
A couple more minutes of quick turns and fast drops go by. The pilot (a woman, I don't know why I mention that but I remember it clearly) comes back on the comm. "This is the captain. We will be landing quickly in Des Moines, IA. Flight attendants, please prepare the cabin." click. Hard turn right, hard turn left... the FAs are barking out instructions on the comm. Now I can see planes everywhere around us. There had to be a dozen so close I could tell the company clearly. I could discern the 7-5s from the 7-3s, the AB320s from the 319s.
We were at about 8 thousand by now. It was less than 3 minutes since we last heard from the pilot and she was on again. "This is the captain. We will be landing at the Quad Cities airport in 4 minutes. When we land we have been instructed not to approach the terminal. Please remain calm and we will back with instructions as soon as possible." click. Now I could hear a woman crying a few rows behind me.
Our last turn to hit the glide path was so sharp I could see the corn rows in the fields below. There was a SWA 7-3 easily within a mile and a half behind us as we fish tailed, it seemed, into runway alignment. Gears go down way late. We are going much faster than a normal approach. 2k now.... 1500, 1... touchdown... hard. Heavy brakes for a good bit then they release and we roll all the way down to the end and turn right toward the terminal. I look back down the runway and the SWA 7-3 is about 500yrds off the end of the runway. This would have been a "go around" under normal circumstances. Behind Southwest, they are stacked up on a string. 8-10 planes maybe... boom, boom, boom. Big ones too.
"Oh, my God! Oh, my God!" I hear a voice behind me. I turn, it's a man on his cell. 'Two planes hit the WTC. They are on fire...both buildings." We are in the terminal in a flash it seemed. I made a few calls and went to the rental counter and secured a car (a fire engine red, Dodge minivan) before I sat in this tiny airport and watch TV for about 4 hours. By the time I decided to go back to Chicago, the rental counters were chaos. I slowly made my way through the crowd announcing rides were available back to ORD for any takers, follow me out. Outside I turned around to see I had five takers, 2 men, 3 women. One was a UA FA. We barely spoke a word the whole way back. I don't even remember any of their names. ORD was closed and I dropped ‘em off one by one at various places around the city. Then home for me. I'll never forget where I was or that Ch. 9 was a part of it. I still have the stub from the flight. UA 1969, ORD to Phoenix, seat 5F.
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-airlines-mileageplus/...
That was before the second plane. I couldn't believe it. We did have access to US channels and the reporters appeared to be confused when the second plane hit and thought it was a replay.
To be fair, we never really know what some of the more loopy US presidents may do, though.
When I last worked it out - he had about 7 minutes to escape the area of collapse. Intense when you're half way up a skyscraper with no working elevators.
I wonder how many of these pilots flew fighters or something for the Air Force before they took a job flying airliners.
I wonder how a fully automated system like we often think about would handle a situation like this.
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/united-air...
You'd tune your headset to Channel 9 on most aircraft and list to ATC just between the tower and your plane. I'd listen to it many times just to understand when we'd get a delay, maintenance issue, airport slowness..etc.
It also inspired me to write the original version of this Wikipedia article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_control_center
I used to prefer flying United over other airlines because they had it; now that they don't, I don't. :-(
This quote from the article made me smile:
>> Another pilot chimed in: "Only in LA."
The key reason for why ATC don't lose their cool has nothing to do with who is more stressed or has more "skin in the game" and everything to do with the fact that if ATC lose their cool then the pilot is more likely to die... and possibly other planes and their passengers and crew too. In order to save lives ATC have to keep their cool even when everyone else around them panics. That's the real crux of the matter.
Being the belayer means you don't have much control and are mostly just watching closely and hoping your buddy doesn't get hurt. Being in a scary lead situation forces you to concentrate which pushes a lot of the fear emotions aside. Worry and fear take a lot of energy, energy which often can't be spared in an emergency where you have some control over the situation.
One example is WWII commanders would sometimes continue to bring ammunition to machine gun nests even when just adding it to large piles. It may have been the best option when they start, but they never revisit that choice. The same thing happens to pilots where people investigate a crash and find pilots keep doing the exact same thing that’s not working for several minutes without considering that perhaps some assumption they have is wrong.
Finally, some people don’t seem to react much at all to such personal risks.
ATC can have a larger stake than any single pilot. Consider a mid air collision scenario, for instance.
They will handle more lives daily than a pilot. Don't dismiss it.
ATC involved in incidents can suffer from severe PTSD.
/kidding, I know this is an absurd stretch of the terms, appreciate all the explanations.
> ”The chicken is involved but the pig is committed.”
That is, while both are needed to make breakfast, the pig has a bigger stake in the project.
The chicken may be providing the eggs but the pig is being eaten!
The SR71 radio speed check was in LA too.
I heard a Cessna ask for a readout of its ground speed.
'90 knots Center replied.
Moments later,a Twin Beech required the same.
'120 knots' Center answered.
We weren’t the only ones proud of our ground speed that day
as almost instantly an F-18 smugly transmitted:
'Ah, Center, Dusty 52 requests ground speed readout.'
There was a slight pause, then the response,
'620 knots on the ground, Dusty.'
As I was thinking to myself how ripe a situation this was,
I heard a familiar click of a radio transmission coming from my
back-seater. It was at that precise moment I realized Walt and I
had become a real crew, for we were both thinking in unison.
'Center, Aspen 20, you got a ground speed readout for us?'
There was a longer than normal pause
'Aspen, I show 1,942 knots.'
No further inquiries were heard on that frequency.
It's possibly a little too cute or maybe embellished, but there's nothing in it that sounds impossible or beyond plausibility.
For reference I have a pilot's license.
Unfortunately.
https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/8x5ndw/til_wh...
Also Brian Shul (the originator of this anecdote) and his RSO were the only SR71 crew removed from the program. There is a reason for that.
Off topic, but be sure to run Javascript on theaviationgeekclub.com or else the code that breaks your clipboard will fail to run.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Shul
[1] https://theaviationgeekclub.com/sr-71-blackbird-pilot-tells-...
As to "not using the same freq", military aircraft have radios with knobs that turn. They can certainly monitor and talk on civilian frequencies if they see fit to do so, and they fly in and out of civilian airports regularly on ferry flights (not the SR-71 obviously, but I know for a fact F-18s do all the time, because I used to stand duty at a command that owned a bunch of them and we had to file reports on what airport they were at). If they can't talk on civilian frequencies, how would that work? And they fly through civilian ATC owned airspace, they absolutely have to talk to civilian ATC.
As to Shul being removed from the program, have never heard that -- I'm not likely to take the word of some random on the internet about it.
Related post: https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/archive/index.php/t-56350...
Even after the transatlantic world record "fastest air-breathing manned aircraft" flights in 1976? Especially if they were flying below the record speeds (depends on the exact numbers, going by wikipedia, the record was for approx. 1905 knots, which of course is lower than the figure in the story)?
(But, yeah, I've heard plenty of people, including other SR71 pilots in interviews, question the validity of Shul's stories)
The actual top speed might still be, if it is, it's probably because they don't actually know what it really is. There have been multiple pilots who have said they could pretty much keep giving it gas and it would keep going faster.
Not saying it’s impossible that he made it up or embellished, but it seems likely that it actually happened.
I'm sure he wouldn't let the truth get in the way of a good story.
The SR71 requested flight level 800.
The ATC, thinking someone was joking, said, "If you can get up there, FL800 is yours."
The SR71 replied, "Maam, we're coming down to 800."
Ground control also works in the tower, after all they have to be able to see the airport taxiways. They may also have a separate ground radar. They are only talking to planes on the ground.
At a busy airport, these will be separate individuals working each of these duties.
At a less busy airport, or during quieter hours, the same controller may work both tower and ground simultaneously.
There are also "center" controllers who work in the enroute traffic centers. They are not in towers and often not at any airport, as they talk with planes at altitude and work by radar and voice communication, not visual.
For example, in a typical departure, you first talk to ground control for taxi clearance and instructions. When you are ready for departure (near but not yet on the runway!) ground will say "contact tower on 123.45" (or whatever frequency), and tower will clear you for takeoff. After you've taken off, tower may say "contact center on 124.56" (again, whatever the frequency is).
While you're flying, each center controller will hand you off to a different center (and different frequency) which you cross between the different areas that the different centers cover.
For landing, it's the same thing in reverse order: center hands you off to tower as you approach the airport, and after you're on the runway, tower hands you off to ground (who again is up in the tower, but only talking to planes on the ground) for taxi instructions.
When the weather cleared, EVERYONE flew in. It was chaos.
I am unable to find the recording, but ATC was like "high wing, low wing, if you have a wing, turn left"
https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/910sge/the_adsb_at_...
Tune into LGA or JFK on any given Thursday; examples for miles
Thanks for the link with more of the audio - there's definitely at least a tinge of disbelief!
It was the first space disaster play out in real time over the internet. NASA streamed mission control communication on their site. We got everything unfiltered. The nation just lost a pride and joy, and mission control was incredibly calm and professional throughout. I was constantly hitting refresh on Slashdot, and then someone posted, "NASA just updated the mission status page to 'Lost'." It was just so weird looking at those words on screen.
I walked in and didn't believe people when they said what happened. (I had a similar reaction when my spouse woke me up at the crack of dawn by announcing "They knocked down the Towers!") Then the sub rolls in a TV cart. Oh.
The other thing that struck me was that nobody editorialized what they were seeing. I knew that the twin smoke trails spiraling off to the sites were the SRBs, three seconds into the video. There was nothing else they could possibly be. But the announcer was very clear to say they might be the SRBs but we don't know anything yet. As an adult having sat through many lower-stakes RCA and production outage situations, I can respect their reserve. As a child it just made me even more upset.
A ne'er-do-well kid ran into my elementary school classroom and exclaimed, "The space shuttle exploded!" and the teacher turned on the TV.
For Columbia, I was driving to get bagels for breakfast. I was on the I-80 to I-5 interchange in Sacramento, CA when I first heard on the radio there was something wrong.
Once, flying from Western NY to Peoria Illinois, the tower came on to ask if he could find a pilot in the area, single engine, that was lost and in a slight panic. They new where he was, he had his transponder on, but were having difficulty getting him to follow directions. We were flying a light twin turboprop (Mitsubishi MU2-B) which can easily drop to low air speeds. We found the guy, and he followed off our left wing, so my father could keep an eye on him, and we took him to where he had clear visual of his destination airport. We then just continued on our way.
I had a headset on, and the flight controllers were so calm talking to that other pilot. It was like listening to Fred Rogers. I think my father only said a dozen words the whole time, acknowledging the request, declaring visual, and declaring visual on the airport.
We just continued our trip, but we did hear the other pilot declare base and final.
Someone please hurry up and make these sound bytes into an EDM song, thanks.
But it makes me wonder about helicopter pilots. Do they say left and right?
For example "traffic 3 o'clock" means there is someone on you right.
Port/starboard is not used in aviation and I don't know of any equivalent besides left/right.
Some things seem to have been carried over though - you still almost always board an aircraft from the port side, don't you?
And port/left is still a red light, and starboard/right is still a green light, on aircraft.
A good way to remember all this is 'port is red and is passed to the left'.
Right of way rules are similar sailplanes have priority over powered aircraft, otherwise the one on the right has priority and in case of a face to face, you should turn right (or go up/down, but certainly not left)
They didn't completely reinvent navigation for aircraft and a lot of carry over is expected. I'd say port/starboard vs left/right is more of an exception than a rule, generally the same conventions are used when applicable.
If to starboard red appear, tis your duty to keep clear.
So I wouldn't call these two specific examples relics, but I agree with you on uniforms & ranks.
It seems less like a relic and more like applying an already found solution to the same problem.
Not sure why you are downvoted, it's the most relevant and humorous explanation of the calm, professional ATC "Houston Center" voice out there.
https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/8x5ndw/til_wh...
Wait...military planes only have a single radio receiver? Military spy planes only have a single radio receiver?
This seems a perfectly sensible thing for the RSO to do on a training mission, since on a real mission he might need to monitor multiple frequencies:
> I was beginning to feel a bit sorry for Walter in the back seat. There he was, with no really good view of the incredible sights before us, tasked with monitoring four different radios. This was good practice for him for when we began flying real missions, when a priority transmission from headquarters could be vital
At this point, they have passed their hours threshold and are heading back home. The pilot says:
> Just to get a sense of what Walt had to contend with, I pulled the radio toggle switches and monitored the frequencies along with him.
For redundancy they have multiple Transceivers, and most military radios cover both VHF and UHF.
For safety and redundancy the pilots can receive and transmit on any of their multiple radios just by (selecting the appropriate frequency) and pressing the appropriate Receive/Transmit selector buttons.
Many military aircraft also have secure (spread-spectrum) transceivers as separate units.
Many aircraft that fly over water also have VHF Marine radios fitted.
How well do those show up on radar?
The newer type of radar for detecting debris exist at some airports but because of their main purpose is to monitor debris on the runaway it is only for short distance and not pointed to the sky.