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Comment by shajznnckfke | Hacker News Reader

In iOS 13, Apple and third-party ad tracking were both controlled by the same opt-out setting. In iOS 14, the settings have been split, with third party tracking disabled and and Apple’s tracking enabled by default. Blatant anticompetitive behavior to promote their own tracking services in the guise of protecting users. Genius move by Apple.

https://twitter.com/eric_seufert/status/1291730115253145600?...

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Hmm, what is "their own tracking services"? iAd is dead since long, the only ads they serve are Apple Search Ads right? Is there any evidence/suggestion that they are using usage data from outside the App Store to target ASA? The promo-page doesn't seem to indicate that at least [1].

I mean, still in iOS 14, Google can use your data from e.g Google Maps / Chrome to target ads in the Youtube app on the same device without requiring any accounts by using identifierForVendor [0]. AFAIK this wouldn't require them to show the scary pop-up either, since they are only sharing the info with themselves?

But yeah, even without "tracking" the users, the ASA is of course in a privileged position, both in its prominent position in the (only) App Store, and by the possibility to charge per e.g app install. Doing reliable app install tracking without IDFA is next to impossible. Taking it further by restarting iAd now would be highly problematic imho.

[0]: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/uikit/uidevice/162... [1]: https://searchads.apple.com/privacy/

Facebook’s top ad business on iOS is for app installs. Their cross-app tracking is how they demonstrate that the ad resulted in app sales. Apple is cutting that off here. As you mention, Apple’s competing ad service is also for app installs.

Apple will actually hurt themselves with this change. The apps that can afford to advertise have a paid component to generate revenues. Apple taxes this revenue at 30%. I don’t get why they are going after FB when they aren’t a threat and Social media is the reason to people upgrade your phone to get a better camera. Not to mention the revenue FB drives in App Store purchases.

That’s a solid point. I’d look out for Apple to push their app install ads into more places (eg. the home search bar, various apps they bundle with the phone). Maybe a second attempt at iAd - it will be easier for that to succeed with the competition blocked.

From my naive perspective, it looks like they’re taking their privacy stance so seriously that they’re willing to lose some revenue.

Not just Apple search, they have ads for product installs in Apple News (see sample in imgur link below) and will presumably add similar add space inventory to other services as times progresses. So if they have one set of rules for them and one for third-parties, that can be interpreted as likely anti-competitive behavior

https://imgur.com/hOkRKBP

This is my main issue with it. If Microsoft say, added something to your host file, that blocked all ad trackers except from the Microsoft network, everyone would be up in arms. But since it's Apple, people think this is out of the goodness of their heart when really they just want all the data for themselves which they will eventually use in their in-app advertising. Heck maybe they will use this to subsidize any losses they gave from eventually having to lower their 30% fee.

> If Microsoft say, added something to your host file, that blocked all ad trackers except from the Microsoft network, everyone would be up in arms.

You'll love this: https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/windows-10-h...

Not seeing how this is similar? Telemetry data used to detect OS bugs vs highly intrusive data collection that is used for advertising?

Consider a scenario where a non-technical person whose friend blocked telemetry through the hosts file for them, and they get a pop-up saying that the hosts file is risky. It's stochastically likely that it's scary enough that they'll undo the privacy-preserving changes. In this case, Microsoft is using their weight to push users away from privacy.

This is a pretty shitty move by Apple! Having said that, I can still disable Apple's tracking. I cannot easily do this with Google or Facebook. So while separating the first and third party preferences a shitty move, the changes to tracking protections in iOS 14 still do protect users.

You can 100% easily disable tracking with Google and Facebook. They both are required by GDPR and CCPA to provide the tools to do that. In both cases you can go in your account and disable targeted ads. Do it.

> disable tracking with Google and Facebook

> go in your account and disable targeted ads

Those are not the same thing.

GDPR and CCPA give you control to stop tracking altogether, not allowed to drop cookies to you. I fail to understand how that would be different.

To what extent is this really "tracking"? Apple's ads are served only in a few of their own apps, like the App Store and News. They're only tracking you across their own services, no differently than Facebook or Google could do in iOS 14, right?

This seems like a poor equivalence when Facebook and Google aren’t allowed to run an App Store on iOS, and Apple also boosts News, Music and other services by bundling and exempting them from the 30% revenue cut that competitors are subject to. Overall, the big picture is Apple is leveraging their power of platform owner to advantage their other businesses at the expense of competition and ultimately the consumer.

The big money at stake in this particular change is ads promoting the installation of apps. Facebook’s current tracking allows them to show that a particular ad FB displayed resulted in spending on an app. Apple taking over this business with their own ad service is just another aspect of their efforts to capture an ever-expanding chunk of commerce that occurs on every iOS device. Keep in mind the context that Apple is banning apps for allowing users to use subscription services without paying Apple 30% of the subscription revenue.

For what it’s worth, Google is guilty of some of the same issues on Android. I hope any regulation cracking down on these abuses will be equally applied.

I'm not sure it's a poor equivalence. Apple's ads appear only in a few of their own apps. I wouldn't even call it an ad service, because that implies that third-parties can use it.

In comparison, Google and Facebook both operate actual, for-profit ad services that are used across almost every website and app in the world.

I agree about Apple being too strict on the App Store. But it's not really what I'm talking about.

Apple does offer an ad service to third parties: https://searchads.apple.com

The biggest market for Facebook’s ads on iOS is for apps. Apple is cracking down on that with this change, so Facebook won’t be able to show attribution for app purchases. It’s hard not to think that this change is an effort to take over the market with their competing app advertising service.

My claim is that this is part of the larger effort to take a bigger cut the economic activity that happens on the phone. The 30% app cut expansion to cover more services is part of that. Capturing the advertising revenue for apps is another. The only way for Apple to keep growing as a two trillion dollar company is to take over more of the economy, and this is part of that effort.

I envision a future where, if they can get away with it, Apple takes an expanding cut of every Doordash delivery, every Uber ride, every Amazon purchase, and any other good or service that they can obtain sufficient market power to capture.

In such doomsday scenario and assuming no laws gets passed to change things the service providers (eg. Instagram, Uber, Doordash) can start charging iOS users more to adjust for this. This is already happening as the YT subscription shows.

That is, goods on Amazon, Uber rides, food prices all will be more expensive to iOS users and then maybe Instagram and TikTok can start charging iOS users $50/yr as well. At the end of the day a mobile platform needs third party services as much they need the platform otherwise Windows phone would've survived.

AaaS

From Peter Kafka:

>Yes. Apple has a detailed answer but essentially says that's not so, and is a misreading of its policy.

https://twitter.com/pkafka/status/1298662980457046016

I’d love to get more details about this.

Do not worry, the device identifier by Apple is rarely used anyways, usually ad networks identify the user either by fingerprinting or the app developer willingly giving away personal information like e-mail or login information.

Curious how you fingerprint an iOS device? I assume you can’t pull MAC, installed apps or anything that would be unique per phone owner.

I am actually not sure, but they do it somehow.

At least there is a way to opt-out compared to, say, things like this: https://hn.algolia.com/?query=carrieriq&sort=byPopularity&pr...

iOS 14 has a prompt for third party tracking.[1] It isn't disabled.

[1] https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/22/apple-ios-14-ad-tracking/

That looks like iOS 14- I don't see that separation in 13.6

Correct, there was a typo in my comment. I edited to add “14”.

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