Hacker News Reader

Comment by refurb | Hacker News Reader

I'm confused. The police aren't administering the drug, EMS is. Can't you just solve this by telling EMS not to administer it unless they feel it's needed?

View on HN

The guy with the gun who gets to murder with impunity said to do it.

This is what happens when medical personnel refuse illegal police orders:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_University_of_Utah_Hospit...

Graphic video of police abusing the nurse who refused:

https://youtu.be/ihQ1-LQOkns

Any time you think you have a simple solution to a problem and your explanation to fix things starts with “just”, stop and think for a moment that perhaps someone else has already thought up your simple solution.

It's not a life-saving drug, it's literally never needed. Guy was 140 lbs. There's not a 140 lb man I couldn't subdue myself, probably. And I'm just an out of shape programmer. Why do six cops feel they can't do the same?

Because when the feedback loops on his 140lb musculature are blocked and he will keep going to the point of permanent damage... and when his ability to feel pain is decreased... and there's a very real concern for hyperthermia, rhabdomyolysis with an extended struggle, dysrhythmia, then maybe ketamine becomes the better option.

That being said, ketamine should be an EMS decision to minimize risk to patient and others, not "at LE direction".

So cops are doctors now? Or EMS even? Neither have any real medical training, at all. No offense meant, EMS grind for little money, but they're not medical doctors.

Narcan I was already uneasy about, but it saved real lives in obvious situations. This is absolute lunacy.

Do you have any idea how many medical procedures cops are trained on? It’s a lot. They aren’t doctors but they are required to assist medically and stabilize until EMT arrives.

Specifically no, but I do know they are trained. That said, training is just that. If you see X, do Y. And sure, net, it's a positive thing. But again, they aren't medical doctors. It's not always IF THEN. Oftentimes it's IF AND NOT THEN.

Either way, I don't want to go down a rabbit hole of arguing life saving procedures. My entire point is that we should not be injecting people with non emergency drugs like Ketamine.

Actually, we should be giving patients. Ketamine is an extremely safe drug for paramedics to give for the safety of the patient and those around them. Especially in cases of excited delerium where the person may actually die because of it. In these cases ketamine is absolutely an emergency drug.

> My entire point is that we should not be injecting people with non emergency drugs like Ketamine.

Instead your argument seems to be that we should be subjecting people to significant risk from rhabdo, hyperthermia, which to be clear can be entirely significant.

It’s not about the training of police, it’s about the track record of police misconduct and coverups. Any additional tool in the tool belt of police to commit aggression is worrisome.

Excited delirium is a really, really sketchy diagnosis. There's certainly no good clinical evidence to suggest that ketamine is an effective treatment.

They did subdue him: they put him in a chokehold, with enough pressure to stop his heart.

They don't administer it unless it meets all criteria in their protocols. Something like administering Ketamine would be under a standing order meaning that the paramedics would not need to consult with medical control prior to administration. There would need to be a post-call consultation with medical control to document it and explain why it was given in addition to everything being documented in the patient care report given to hospital staff at the time of transfer of patient care.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com