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Comment by zedshaw | Hacker News Reader

> the problem is that if you promise a manager something

The real problem is thinking of "estimates" as "promises" when really they're rough guesses. If you go around holding people to a guess as if it were some kind of gospel biblical contract then yes, they will lie their ass off to protect themselves. Combine that with the fact that most organizations attempt to control the platform used, computers used, monitor size, operating system, IDE, editors, revision control tools, languages, documentation systems, testing methodology, meeting requirements, pairing, and nearly everything they can, and you start to see the real problem is....

managers who don't know programming, motherfucker. :-)

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My favorite is when conflicting estimates are asked for, then BOTH taken as promises. Manager ADD

Manager: "How quick can you get this done?"

MFer: "3months (assuming price is no object)"

Two weeks pass...

Manager: "Our budgets changed. How much $$ can we trim out of this project?"

MFer: "We can cut it in half, but that will triple our timeline."

Manager: "cut in half! Great!"

3months pass:

Manager: "Hey why are we behind? The big guys want an explanation why you aren't meeting your targets!"

Who are you?

Managers want promises because execs need promises because the board is critiquing their job performance based on when they ship the next product.

The board wants promises because they want to know when they get paid.

If you find it stressful that people are turning your vague estimate into a promise, imagine having to make promises on other people's vague estimates.

Sometimes they are promises. To customers. Who've already paid for it. :S

Ohhh, my bad, I totally forgot that people like selling things that don't exist but telling everyone else they do exist.

I suppose the epitome of this would be pre-orders for Duke Nukem Forever?

Or promises to customers for custom software. They don't pay except on acceptance, but they won't pay more than the estimate.

Of course, then you run into some of the same situations as described.

shrug

famous case:

http://www.itworld.com/waste-management-sues-sap-080327

"At that meeting, SAP AG executives and engineers represented that the software was a mature solution and conducted a demonstration consisting of what they represented was the actual SAP Waste and Recycling software," the complaint states. The company later discovered that the software was a "mock-up version of that software intended to deceive Waste Management," according to the complaint. SAP has admitted to this in "internal documents," the complaint states.

"From the beginning, SAP assured Waste Management that its software was an 'out-of-the-box' solution that would meet Waste Management's needs without any customization or enhancements," the statement reads. "Unfortunately, Waste Management ultimately learned that these representations were not true."

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