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Comment by poulsbohemian | Hacker News Reader

We live in farm country, so we talk and hypothesize about the future of food frequently. I'm inclined to think that we're going to see a lot more vegetarians in the US middle / upper middle class. I also have to wonder if we'll see a time where it is only the poor and the very rich who eat meat - the poor eating factory "meat" and the very rich eating traditionally raised / heritage / "organic" meat. We've cut way back on our meat consumption, because we wanted to actually know the origin of our food. At least in our circle of connections, it feels very much like there are a whole lot of vegetarians / infrequent meat eaters.

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Meat substitutes have already become fashionable. They are already in fast food, which makes me doubt that cheap meat will even be food for poor people when emulating the educated middle class is less expensive than eating meat.

Vat-grown meat will have to do better than emulating cheap chicken. Endangered exotic species and ethical cannibalism will be tried. The Kardashians will license their DNA and everyman, for a reasonable price, can eat the rich.

Meat substitutes are becoming fashionable, but they are still expensive relative to factory meat, and while some are very good, many taste awful and are not a good substitute nutritionally.

I couldn't even finish the Impossible Whopper when I tried it - taste and consistent of rubber. We tried some substitute chicken recently - taste was good, consistency was good, but then we looked at the ingredients - was basically a ball of flour with some flavoring; not really what I want to serve my kids regularly.

Something I've noticed about the meat substitutes: My family likes them better when they don't try to be meat. As in - when they are flavorful and nutritious on their own rather than attempting to simulate meat, they tend to be better than the options that are trying too hard to pretend to be meat.

This is something I don't understand. I remember several outcries over substitutes/analogues in the last decades.

One was about analog cheese, f.i. on pizza. Another "meat glue" used to form shreds into a big block of ham. Not to forget surimi instead of real shrimps.

Then the vegetarian/vegan craze really took off, and nobody cared about "Eingriffstiefe"/depth of engagement of technically processed food anymore, just had to have some veggie-label on it and all was good.

Just by applying the reasoning that raising animals in mostly harm-free and organic ways is good for the quality of the meat, by giving it better texture and taste, one could come to the conclusion that this Pappfraß does the same to humans which eat it in the same ways as all that other industrial junk.

But I mostly don't see it mentioned, with the exception of Paleo. It's all about virtue signalling and bizniz.

( Sometimes I think for myself that I'd really like to signal them MY virtues, letting them feel my golden shower power... by pissing in their faces... )

I feel the risk from prions may put a swift end to any 'ethical cannibalism' ideas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion

Presumably vat-grown 'human' meat would be free of prion risk?

I'm newly vegetarian since it's the cheapest way to eat (source- Efficiency Is Everything)

Egg + milk vegetarian is quite easy and satisfied any meat cravings, where when I try to eat vegan I feel lacking.

I know there's the whole morality behind chicken eggs and milk, so I don't see vegetarian as the end destination for anyone who cares about ethics/morals.

Nutritional yeast, tamari, and dried mushrooms goes a long way for me.

Also see tofu, soy protein, and wheat gluten.

More should try to reduce meat consumption and avoid supporting factory farms.

Tempeh is also great, cooked in a pan with soy sauce or Teryaki sauce.

I'm curious to hear other points of view regarding eggs. We had long wanted chickens of our own, and this spring finally built a coop and got some birds. They should start laying later this year, with our intent being they will eventually supply all our family egg needs (which are considerable - on the order of 3+ dozen a week). These birds are seriously pampered and will presumably live long, natural lives beyond their "productive" years.

While I can understand concerns about factory conditions for egg layers, is there anyone who believes there are ethical issues around eggs produced in the decidedly non-factory conditions of my backyard? I've been somewhat amazed by just how easy it has been to raise them so far and would advocate anyone who wants to enjoy eggs should give it a go.

Regarding milk: Yes, I'm in agreement, for most adult humans the soy / almond / oat / etc options are perfectly good, apart perhaps from baking.

Fish is the one area I don't personally see a good substitute, until the market tells me it is too expensive to continue eating.

You are going to keep them after productive years? Also I believe it still kills males.

> is there anyone who believes there are ethical issues around eggs produced in the decidedly non-factory conditions of my backyard?

Yes. Hens in a natural setting (a backyard human controlled setting is not natural) would lay about 25 eggs in a whole year. If you do not collect the eggs from your birds, this should be what you observe, unless these are selectively bred birds who may lay more eggs. If you calculate your three dozens a week as a per-bird number (which you haven’t mentioned), it would likely be many multiples larger.

Egg laying is a physically taxing activity for the birds. Not being able to brood over the laid eggs is another issue if you agree that these birds are also capable of feeling emotionally (even if not directly comparable to humans).

The soy / almond / oat / etc options are not perfectly good.

Soy and almond have high levels of phytoestrogens. This encourages obesity, breast growth (including in males), and cancer.

Oat isn't quite so bad, but it has high levels of phytic acid, an antinutrient.

Reference? This sounds alarming, and I would like to learn more.

> for anyone who cares about ethics/morals

Or rather, holds the same moral views as you hold.

I wonder if we could be at the beginning of a sea-change where widespread access to very fresh produce, continued messaging about the health benefits of plants, and the best recipes the world has to offer, lead to a "rediscovery" of produce.

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