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Comment by haltingproblem | Hacker News Reader

Wrong. Try again.

There are 450~ million Arabs and you chose to focus on the 4.5 million Palestinians who voted in elections in 2006. These elections bought Hamas to power in in Gaza and PLO in the West Bank. Gaza is autonomous in terms of governance and has chosen to not hold elections since the last one in 2006. Neither has the PLO. They both plead unable to hold elections because they want to hang on to power though the international community wants them to.

Edit: Getting down voted for stating facts.

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> Getting down voted for stating facts.

I downvoted for the obnoxious phrasing of "Wrong. Try again." It goes against the first paragraph of the HN commenting guidelines: "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

You were not responding to the snark but egging on a troll who made a serious political issue about an innocent mention of Israel in the pondering about the course of Persian history this century.

Virtue signalers pop out of the woodwork each time Israel is mentioned. They don't ask everyone to preface each mention on Turkey with their persecution of the Kurds or their refusal to accept the Armenian Genocide. They don't take each mention of Egypt to talk about the Coptic exodus but each mention of Israel has to be prefaced.....this is insanity.

I sincerely feel for the Palestinians because half the world is using them as their club for virtue signaling. This just eggs them to fight to the last Palestinian and give up every chance for peace and their own nation they ever had.

Neither Hamas not the PLO hold the power of the state, therefore there are not democratic elections, therefore Palestine isn't a democratic nation. The immediate reason why they cannot hold elections for their government is because of Israeli occupation. Therefore, there are people that Israel exercise the power of the State over that do not vote for the State, therefore it is not a democracy.

I suppose you could argue that with PLO, but not Hamas. They are in complete control of Gaza have been since 2007. They could have held elections there anytime they wanted to. But they won't.

According to Wikipedia :

> Despite the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza,[21] the United Nations, international human rights organisations, and the majority of governments and legal commentators consider the territory to be still occupied by Israel, supported by additional restrictions placed on Gaza by Egypt. Israel maintains direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza: it controls Gaza's air and maritime space, and six of Gaza's seven land crossings. It reserves the right to enter Gaza at will with its military and maintains a no-go buffer zone within the Gaza territory. Gaza is dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[21] The system of control imposed by Israel is described as an "indirect occupation".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

That being said, the occupation of Palestine nominally under PlO control is sufficient so that Israel is not a democracy.

The US and UK won't be democratic by the same reasoning because they have "occupied" parts of Cuba and Argentina respectively.

Not to forget that rockets are routinely fired into Israel from Gaza. So, it seems Israel has good reasons to exercise that kind of control over Gaza.

If the citizens in the Falklands or Guantanamo weren't allowed to vote, you would have a point, however they are allowed to vote, so you don't have a point.

The standard is occupation of a territory without giving them or its inhabitants the right to vote.

Palestinians are an occupied people living under Israeli apartheid.

There are a good chunk of Palestinians living under Arab control in Gaza. They also haven't voted since 2007. How do you explain that?

The result of their last election led to Israeli raids, detention of parliament/cabinet members, and increased sanctions from both Israel and the US. Why would they want a new election? Further, Israel and the US have both given signals saying that next time they'll ensure the results they want

Fatah-Hamas conflict is deserves the blame for that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict

The events I listed were not part of the Fatah-Hamas conflict, they were retaliation from the US and Israel for Hamas winning the election.

The GP was talking about Palestinians being unable to vote. While it's easy to place blame Palestine issues on the US and Israel, in this case it's clear that elections are not taking place because Fatah and Hamas can't get their house in order.

The discussion is about Palestinian sovereignty. When your election results in the kind of retaliation I mentioned, why would you work towards another? Such elections aren't proof of democracy.

> Such elections aren't proof of democracy

While the current situation is an indicator that Palestinians don't get to choose their leaders.

That's a lot of excuses most of which do not stand up to scrutiny.

However you slice it, Hamas is in full charge of Gaza. They can call for a new election whenever they want.

>That's a lot of excuses most of which do not stand up to scrutiny.

It is an easily verifiable series of events that took place in ~2006. Here's some sources.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/aug/21/israel

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/18/world/middleeast/hamas-le...

>While the current situation is an indicator that Palestinians don't get to choose their leaders

When your choice of leaders results in such retaliation, an election does not enable you to choose your leaders either.

Your links betray how long ago this has happened. You are using excuses from 2006 to justify why a group of people doesn't deserve democracy.

I figured saying "The result of their last election led to..." made it clear when this happened. The blockade resulting from those events is still ongoing, these things aren't ancient history.

The Palestinians definitely deserve democracy, however creating one will require more than just an election.

The blockade resulted from Hamas sniping at Israel with mortars and missiles and rockets for nearly 15 years - which also caused 2-3 major wars.

The moment they stop their shenanigans is the day the blockade ends.

I agree that creating a democracy needs more than just an election. However, perhaps letting them vote in some new people might result in governance that is willing to play ball and come up with some kind of agreement.

>The blockade resulted from Hamas sniping at Israel with mortars and missiles and rockets for nearly 15 years - which also caused 2-3 major wars

It was initiated as part of the postelection economic sanctions. Israel cites the rocket attacks for making it necessary to continue, but that is not the start.

>However, perhaps letting them vote in some new people might result in governance that is willing to play ball and come up with some kind of agreement.

Or it gives the US and Israel a chance to rectify their previous mistake and ensure their chosen candidates win. Democracy!

The Palestinian's that I have talked to say it's because of retaliation from israel and the threats of violence.

Palestinians are a distinct ethnic group that happens to speak Arabic

Thank you! From what I've read the Palestinians are nominally at least descended from the Philistines of biblical history.

The Philistines were an Indo European people originally from Crete.

(of course there is much mixing after such a time, so "Arab" might not be completely off base).

They didn't just mix with Arabs. Many Palestinians are descendants from the 12 tribes of Israel but have been disowned be the rest of those tribes because their ancestors changed religions.

>Edit: Getting down voted for stating facts.

No, you're getting downvoted for stating falsehoods. Israel economically and militarily controls the occupied territories. Holding phony elections for "leaders" that are powerless to do anything because they wield no state power is not democracy. This would be true even if Gaza wasn't under an illegal blockade which prevents residents of Gaza from leaving without Israeli permission and prevents those from other countries from visiting or engaging in commerce with Gaza without Israeli permission.

Reasonable people can disagree over what the way forward is in Israel, but people who deny reality in order to push their agenda are not reasonable.

I searched and I cannot see how you found 450 mil for population of arabs in te world. I even counted Turkey, Iran, and Pakistan and none of these are arbs.

Also, I talked to a palistinian friend and she thinks palistinians did not vote for Hamas becasue that was the choise. The other ones were just so corrupt. Any way your sentimate is just too reductive for a very complicated region.

Did you count Egypt and Morocco and the rest of N. Africa? I might be off by 10% and most of these countries don't exactly hold a census.

Algerian here. While there are certainly Arabs in the Maghreb, we’re not all Arabs and don’t generally identify as Arab. My family identifies as Amazigh. Most Algerians will tell you they’re Algerian, not Arab. Many friends from other parts of the Maghreb identify similarly.

Having been to the Maghreb, I completely agree with you. There are Tuaregs and Amazigh and even the locals who are "Arabs" are a mixture. I should have used the term Arab-speaking world instead of Arab. There is no ethnic notion of Arabs as a race and I understand that. Shukran :)

No, you're getting downvoted for ignoring the Israeli treatment of Palestinians, something akin to the holocaust that was inflicted on the Jews by the Nazis is being repeated now on the Palestinians, who are technically their distant cousins.

You are being downvoted because you ignore history conveniently to support an apartheid state like Israel.

Everything I said about the Palestinian elections is from Wikipedia and their direct words. You also ignore the fact that Arabs in Israel are the only Arabs (other than the Tunisian, occasionally) who can vote and have their own parties.

Palestinians Arabs have had one national election and Israeli Arabs vote as often as Israel has elections which seems to be happening every year.

Criticize Israel's conduct all you want but please come with facts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Palestine

The wikipedia article indicates an absence of democracy in Palestine, haltingproblem, wouldn't you agree?

> Israel does not allow free exercise of political activities; checkpoints and separation walls hinder many social activities. The Legislative Council cannot properly function because free travel is impossible, especially between Gaza and the West Bank, regardless of hostilities between Fatah and Hamas. Members of the Palestinian Legislative Council and other politicians have been subject to lengthy detentions by Israel or even killed

Israel is not a democratic country because it supports the Saudi monarchy, a completely unprincipled, and despotic regime. Basically a Middle Eastern North Korea.

A political regime supporting an inherently antidemocratic system is not democractic by the definition.

They are also very fond of the Egyptian Sisi, an another tinpot despot.

And am not joking here. People need to finally stop thinking of it as a some kind of tinfoil thing. The Israel—Saudi—Egyptian axis is 100% real. It sounds bizarre, but its true, been documentary verified, and supported by accounts of many diplomats of 3rd countries, US included. The open source investigatory journalists, among other things, established the fact of regular visits of their top officials to each other's countries.

https://www.google.com/search?q=israel+saudi+axis

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42094105

So does the US, UK, France, Germany. By your definition there are no democracies in the world.

I was talking about the glories of Persian civilization and its glories and you had to drag in the "evil US-Saud-Egyptian" axis. You got an axe to grind.

Surely the Persian civilization was glorious and it could still shine. The problem was you mentioning Israel and denigrating the Palestinians. I urge you to take a second look at this issue, Israel is a terrible oppressor of these people.

> I was talking about the glories of Persian civilization

No.

What you were actually talking about and what people might be taking issue with:

- an implied claim that Palestinians currently enjoy rights to self-determination

- comparing 4.5 million to 450 million people as if the welfare of those 4.5 million are not worthy of discussion

They do. They voted for their government in 2006. Then the ones who they elected decided to not hold elections again. Its good to virtue signal for Palestinians but atleast get the facts right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Palestine

> good to virtue signal for Palestinians

It's clear who has the axe to grind.

> get the facts right

You're demonstrating that anyone can pick any facts to tell any story.

According to 'haltingproblem, self determination is being able to vote in an election in an occupied territory where there is no freedom of movement and a large portion of the population is dependent on humanitarian aid.

Since this is all so simple and clear to you, can you please arrange your facts to explain what the 982 UN resolutions on the "Question of Palestine" are about?

https://www.un.org/unispal/data-collection/general-assembly/

Out of these three, I think one one goes as far as do so boldly, loudly, and on the record.

> the "evil US-Saud-Egyptian" axis. You got an axe to grind.

Of course I do. For as long as I have a dime of moral judgement, and integrity, I will. Spawning Laden, Qaeda, other tinpot outfits, funding rogue dictatorships of Bashirs, Sisis, Gaddafis, committing the unspeakable barbarity of 9.11 attack, and effectively breaking the world as it is, for the last 20 years. What out of this is not worth the outrage???

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