It's not about you. It's about everyone else.
How can someone be so selfish and self-absorbed that they think their "muscle mass" is more important than the health of hundreds or thousands of other people?
I know this question may violate some HN policy, but I can't help but ask: What's wrong with you?
There have been times in the past where I've made HN comments that were meant as constructive criticism to another HN user. But my accidental tone ruined any chance of my comment being helpful. @dang was gracious enough to provide me detailed feedback [0], and it seems to be working for me.
And let's be clear here: This isn't about the "health" of the gym-goers. It's about preserving their self-image.
Sadly, this is the source of your downvotes. For so many (even here on HN of all places), it's all about ME. My freedom. My choices. My comfort. My convenience. My need to eat at that restaurant or buy that ranch dressing. My absolute right to do squats next to some random person at a gym. Anything that gets in the way of my freedom to do every little thing I want to do any time I want to do it is bad.
We're not talking about genocide here or shredding the constitution. We're talking about sensible and temporary public health policy. But no, I just have to go get my hair done.
Also, I am not concerned how others perceive my beliefs because I know what works for me, so to each their own.
Is America really that filled with narcissists?
COVID inspired woke-scolding is more narcissistic.
> COVID inspired woke-scolding is more narcissistic.
I have a feeling you would say the same thing with or without a deadly virus ravaging your country.
i.e "egocentricism", as mentioned. Are you arguing about the perception of a narcissist, or your own? I'd rather not bite, thanks.
"Symptoms include an excessive need for admiration, disregard for others' feelings, an inability to handle any criticism, and a sense of entitlement."
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-...
I get that you enjoy splitting hairs to confuse an otherwise simple discussion, but I don't.
Home Depot - construction industry is essential
Walmart - groceries are essential
Liquor stores -- groceries are essential
Pot shops -- pharmacies are essential
Gyms -- recreation is not essential
Churches -- culture is not essential
Salons -- culture is not essential
Non-chain stores -- don't have groceries, therefore not essential
Political gatherings -- opposed by the opposite side, nothing has changed
But specifically we went from "avoid overwhelming the health system" to "let's do the things that stops people from continuing to die". And those things involve avoiding human contact unless it is essential, mask wearing, and social distancing. It's not crazy that our government is asking us to do things that make us less likely to die. You know, unless you're a seatbelt truther.
"The response wasn't perfect so shut down all current and future attempts to save lives."
Cool.
Who cares? Why is "economic" harm so important?
I'm really tired of people saying "But what about the economy?" I really don't care. I care about my health and the health of my family members. If some artisan dog biscuit company goes out of business, so be it.
It's not just about you
The "economy" is just our way of measuring what people do for themselves and others all day. "Some artisan dog biscuit company" is someone else's lifelong work and dream, not just a number in a spreadsheet. Minimizing may make you feel better about selfishly demanding everyone turn their lives off, but it's not an accurate representation of the world.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/17/opinion/covid-19-heart-di...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertglatter/2020/08/17/covid-...
That's the first article that shows for googling [covid-19 vascular disease].
Basically my understanding of the current understanding is that COVID-19 is better thought of as a disease that can cause blood clots, particularly in several organ systems, particularly in the lungs -- you start getting blood clots in your lungs and consequently can't breathe very well.
If muscle mass or fitness is a concern, work out at home. Or outside. Ride a bike, go for a run, do some pushups. Pick up large rocks. Buy a squat rack or rowing machine. Go climb a mountain.
Access to a gym is absolutely not required to maintain fitness.
I fear that after this every time there's a bad flu season we will see this same shit again because "think of the most vulnerable among us, you're literally killing them!!"
My coworker has been told he may never taste or smell again as he "recovers" from covid.
There's evidence that COVID survivors might have long term heart conditions https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...
Think of the most vulnerable among us. You are killing them.
None of this is new! This coronavirus is a novel coronavirus, not a magical one. It has effects that are in line with other viral illnesses in humans. It's just a bit more virulent than them. It's a matter of quantitative difference, not qualitative difference.
There is a qualitative difference as well. The lingering side effects of the Lyme-causing bacteria is on a level apart from what happens when you get food-poisoned.
So it's all perfectly fine then? Because there are other viruses that do harm, we should allow this virus to run rampant.
Guess how I know you're not a doctor.
If we are spending hundreds of times as much mitigating a virus five times as bad as common illnesses (yes a once in a century event) are we now going to spend dozens of times more money/effort mitigating the flu every year? If yes then we will see lockdowns like this regularly going forward. If no, then the vast majority of the response to COVID is an emotional overreaction, not rational risk mitigation/pricing in externalities.
I will say in mid-March, when things looked quite different based on our limited knowledge of the virus, that the response wasn't entirely unwarranted. But we've known for months that this isn't nearly as bad as feared. It isn't the second coming of smallpox. Yet we still have most of the restrictions and shaming from March, even to this day.
how do you quantify "five times as bad" ? if I run my car into a brick wall at ten miles an hour, vs. 50, one event damages my car the other kills me. is that "five times as bad"?
> are we now going to spend dozens of times more money/effort mitigating the flu every year? If yes then we will see lockdowns like this regularly going forward.
no, why would we? the flu does not overwhelm hospitals [edit: the 2018 flu season comparison is a counterpoint but there is no argument this is anything on the scale what covid has done in places like NYC], cripple the entire medical system such that thousands of patients are left to die in hallways and parking lots, and spread exponentially to kill hundreds of thousands of people within just a few months.
> If no, then the vast majority of the response to COVID is an emotional overreaction, not rational risk mitigation/pricing in externalities.
you have made no argument to support this case.
> I will say in mid-March, when things looked quite different based on our limited knowledge of the virus, that the response wasn't entirely unwarranted.
what exactly "looked quite different" ? the main things that were known in march, e.g. spreads exponentially, r0 is something like 2 or 3 if steps aren't taken, has a 20% hospitalization rate, has a high death rate for those hospitalized which has improved somewaht but that is predicated on the fact that hospitals are availble, are still true.
There were a lot of tweets from people who work in public health about the argument you're making. "If people said we overreacted, then we will know we did our job". That's how it works when you prevent a horrible thing from going out of control. People who for whatever reason don't seem to understand what happened will crow about how unnecessary that was. Can you see how this looks to anyone who is actually trained in this area?
yes it does https://time.com/5107984/hospitals-handling-burden-flu-patie...
flu may not kill as much as covid or spread as fast as covid but still thousand of people die every year, so somehow that is acceptable without lockdown ?
https://www.contagionlive.com/news/why-comparing-flu-covid-1...
>there was not a global lockdown for the 2018 flu season
Yes, so despite that there are thousand of death due to flue and hospital overwhelmed, somehow is was acceptable to not have lockdown back then?
Due to lockdown the hospital are furloughing, lying off nurse, freeze hiring.
Just look at Sweden where they didn't lockdown.
Doesn't mean I say we should not take any step. Step to make vaccine still has to be done, improving treatment still have to be done, increasing health care capacity still have to be done.
I would hope economists would make judgements based on more than aping what happened "in recent memory," but somehow I'm not surprised. IIRC the last time we had major pandemic like this, gathering places were closed (like now), social distancing was done (like now), masks were worn (like now), and some people chafed against the restrictions and decided that it was better to endanger others (like now).
2. Sweden tried this route. They now have the deaths plus the economic fallout (-6% GDP, just like the locked down neighbours Denmark and Norway), mostly due to the international interconnectedness (collapsing supplier chains etc.)
The US tried something a little like this with forgivable loans to pay businesses' paychecks, but the trouble is they did this after rolling out an unemployment boost that left less well-paid people better off than if they were employed, so it was a little difficult to convince business owners who didn't want their employees to try and murder them in their sleep to take it up.
Lockdowns are killing the most vulnerable among us. We need to take them into account too.