How to stop procrastinating by using the Fogg Behavior Model

I still think this is too limited. Analogous to how Keynes said classical / Ricardian economics discussed distribution of goods given a fixed level of production, the linked article doesn't consider that the maximum productive output on any given day is not the same, even when the 3 variables considered are maximized.

"Behavior" here seems to be a boolean, "why we take action or not take action at any given moment", but I think many people who ask how to be more motivated or productive are asking about total output, not just about the ability to begin a task. They might be able to sit down at their desk and start working, for example, but not be able to continue long even after doing all the tricks.

In my experience, there is some sort of "mental energy reserve", and as that is exhausted it becomes increasingly difficult or maybe impossible to do any further productive work. If you are doing a strength training workout in the gym, no amount of "motivation" is going to let you continue lifting heavy weight indefinitely. I haven't seen much research to quantify that "mental energy reserve" or quantitatively measure how different tasks exhaust it.

There also seems to be some task-related inertia.

I really do hope your page helps some people with their procrastination issues. But I can't help feel like your whole approach suffers from engineers disease. But maybe that's what will resonate with some folks.

A compassionate therapist can also do wonders for procrastination.

Sometimes when I am very emotionally upset or have a very negative task I want to avoid like studying, I will get the sudden urge to clean or work on a similar low-brainpower project (which is not something that comes naturally to me in normal times).

If I were merely trying to feel better I'd just go for video games or something like I normally do, but there must be something else going on that directs me to focus on simple and useful ways to feel better in the most extreme cases. It'd be nice to capture that in a bottle.

Wow that number 3 hit me hard.

I’ve always known myself to procrastinate, but I only think about 1 and 2. In retrospect, I have done 3 in a lot of cases. I just never really thought about it. In fact, I am extremely focused on working on the other task that I’ve always wondered where the motivation comes from.

a few thoughts:

- how much of society is related to driving up or enforcing overcoming these avoidant reflexes

- the negative feeling is often due to a social obligation that may be distorded. You could renegotiate smaller chunks or different terms.. the idea is that in a different context you might approach it with lot more will.

ps: my current gig is in a national office and I could very well rebrand it as land-of-the-procrastinator. It's an endemic disease where nobody wanted to do things (the way they were asked), any newcomer will be dragged down, ensure a good status-low.

This actually looks like the ground work for cognitive behavioural therapy.

The idea (grossly simplified) is to take those observations of negative thoughts and build a rational response to those thoughts (cognitive part). Then you build a habit of noticing those thoughts and responding with the rational response. It’s far easier said than done, and perhaps best dispensed by a therapist. But these mental tools have been crucial to improving my own mental health.

Some great books on that go into more depth than I ever could include Feeling Good by Burns or Byrne, Overcoming Anxiety and Overcoming Depression.

Interesting video. Pychil claims that procrastination is a weakness of will. For another perspective, check out the book, "Scarcity: Why Having Too Little Means So Much" [1], which claims it's not just about will (executive function), but also about tunnel vision and reduced fluid intelligence, all caused by a situation of scarcity--time scarcity in the case of procrastination. And they claim reduced executive function is situational. It's not a fundamental attribute of the procrastinator.

[1] = https://www.amazon.com/Scarcity-Having-Little-Means-Much-ebo...

The article is entirely based on Fogg's behavior model. Your criticism isn't really addressing the article, it's addressing the model used. As for pain avoidance, that seems to be a part of the factor Motivation, which is divided into the sub-factors Sensation, Anticipation and Social Cohesion. I've found a number of sites explaining the model and they all have something like this to say about Sensation:

> Searching to experience pleasure or avoiding pain. These strong motivators are thought to be a primitive and immediate response to information.

I can't find an official source for it, so I have to assume it's in Fogg's book. But it seems pain avoidance is something that is addressed by the model.

Some relevant links:

https://blog.crobox.com/article/fogg-behavior-model

https://www.buzzstream.com/blog/the-psychology-of-behavior-c...

https://mariashriver.com/stanford-researcher-bj-fogg-on-the-...

https://lifehacker.com/how-to-stop-procrastinating-with-beha...

As for Fogg, he seems to be a research associate at Stanford and founded the Behavior Design Lab. How much weight that carries, no idea.

https://behaviordesign.stanford.edu/

edit: I think I found the paper where FBM is from

http://captology.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Beh... (found through https://behaviordesign.stanford.edu/fogg-behavior-model)

Seriously, did he eventually get back to work or what???

If you don't have the steps to achieve X and you can't come up with the steps on the fly (or the steps you know do not work) then you will not be able to do X when you want to.

>> "In situation X I will do behavior Y to achieve subgoal Z"

I was pondering something very similar to this about 10 minutes before he talked about it only I was thinking about changing perspective for the given task, that is: "what 'mode' do I have to be in to get this done?" in place of 'Y'. His short sentence is much more elegant than what I was trying to think but I think 'mode' also fits just as well.

Basically, I think we get too overwhelmed (emotion) with what we have to do and breaking it down into smaller chucks may not be enough. Breaking it down into modes or specialties might make it less daunting. We can all 'plan', 'study', 'code' or whatever hat you need to wear along the way and wearing them all at once, even on a small task can still be overwhelming.

For example, say I have a new coding project but I'm having trouble organising it into chunks as I'm new to the platform/API. What I can do is say "ok, I need to put my 'study' hat on and learn just an overview of how this all works" (study mode) then go back into 'plan' mode to reorganize tasks into further modes to complete item one ('hello world' app say), rinse and repeat.

I would call that a vicious circle, not a catch 22, but the mechanism you describe is real.

Also an ADHDer here. My current model of things is that Dopamine broadly signals messages like "you're going the right way, keep going".

Insufficient dopamine and you end up being really open to needing frequent positive feedback to follow through on a plan. Leading to either:

1) Distractibility -- greater task-switching in the face of frustration or negative emotions.

2) Hyperfocus -- lower task-switching in the face of frequent rewards (like from a video game or novel or programming with test-driven-development).

And then there's a bunch of other mood impacts from the life-impacts of that. For example: Emotional sensitivity due to memories of people being disappointed in you.

Thanks! I have a fortnight off coming up shortly and have added it to my queue. An area I spent a long time discussing in multiple consultations was the tension between genetic predisposition and environment.

Interesting for a few reasons: firstly there’s some limited evidence that early treatment with medication can have a permanent positive impact on the condition in children. Which to my pea sized brain is suggestive of the possibility that we have sufficient elasticity during our brain’s formative years to consider this, sometimes, an illness not a condition.

Secondly there is some evidence to suggest that other disregulations such as dyspraxia and dyslexia are linked to ADHD. A common question in diagnosis is about family history of those conditions.

I was also concerned when my doctor and two psychiatrists told me that therapy was certainly an option but highly unlikely to be successful for me. It seems like this book may paint a different picture.

Thanks for the recommendation! If you suffer from ADHD, do you mind sharing if the book changed your approach to treatment?

Heh, didnt work for me. I just failed the classes I didn't give a damn about.

I think that's probably right in neurotypical folks! Maybe I wasn't clear, but I exhibit what people characterise to me as a remarkable ability to focus and remarkable ability to not focus. Huge deviations from the mean in both directions!

The other thing to remember is that whilst ADHD is likely overdiagnosed, that doesn't mean that many kids who have it will simply not respond to K12 education as an environment which conditions them. This is not something which can be corrected with hard work and thought, although people who do not experience ADHD often (understandably) say things like "just sit still!" or "don't interrupt people it's rude!". The crux of ADHD is that it's a neurodevelopmental disorder and a disregulation of dopamine and chemicals designed to help regulate executive function, focus, anxiety, etc. It is generally not possible to see significant results with therapy, although there is some limited evidence that early intervention through medication has long-lasting effects in children who are able to move off medication in the medium term.

Go to a psychiatrist. Report your symptoms. They will give you a diagnostic and make the call. As long as you go in without stating your suspected diagnosis, you're not "diagnosing."

Do you have a PCP? You just say that you want to get referred to someone to get tested for ADHD because of x, y, and z and you think a diagnosis would help you

There's nothing wrong with using self-diagnosis as a way to inform a professional inquiry. In my unqualified opinion, you probably have ADHD.

No problem, serious answer:

This is the DSMV criteria: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/diagnosis.html

Doctors are typically screening with a quiz that looks something like this: https://psychcentral.com/quizzes/adhd-quiz/

It's perfectly reasonable to say "I think I may have ADHD based on what I've read online, my symptoms match and people who know me have suggested I try adderall".

Some doctors are fine with letting everyone have stimulants, because they're pretty harmless unless you're really binging on them, and they won't give you enough to do that for very long.

Other doctors would prefer to put you on an SSRI or SNRI or wellbutrin or some other "non-addictive" medication (which ironically are more addictive, dangerous, and less effective), so avoid those IMO. You may have to shop around a bit, but your primary care doctor technically can write the prescription, but some prefer not to and you might need to find a specialist.

Contraindications for stimulants are if the patient has a history of heart conditions, complains about racing heart rate, excessive sweating, trouble sleeping, trouble eating, etc.

You generally want to start with a low dose of "instant release" as opposed to "extended release" pills, so you can have more fine grained control over the dose. IR pills can be broken in half, XR cannot. Some doctors are more nervous about IR than XR because they think it has more abuse potential (not true, but it's a common belief).

With all that said, stimulants will fix the problems OP described, but don't mistake that for a pleasant experience. The truth is that amphetamines are extremely mentally exhausting, and if you don't take good care of yourself (planning proper meals, staying hydrated, resting at appropriate times, not taking more pills when you shouldn't), you can quickly spiral out of control. It's hard to explain to someone that doesn't do drugs, but stimulants can leave you feeling like a shell of yourself, and it's really disconcerting. It's sort of like being over-tired where you're awake but your judgment is clearly impaired and you don't feel like "you". If you stay on them long enough, you'll start to feel like a zombie just going through the motions (successfully, mind you), but without identity. I make sure to take weekends off to preserve their efficacy for the work week and to make sure I don't become too dependent.

I'd 100% recommend having stimulants in your toolkit, and chances are you're already supplementing with worse stimulants (like mountains of coffee or soda), so do give them a try, but be careful.

Shoot me an email if you wanna chat about my experience in more detail! Email address in profile :)

I was in a similar position. I did a bunch of reading on ADHD, convinced myself that I probably had it then I found a clinical psychologist who specialized in ADHD and reached out for an initial appointment. Apparently this is a pretty common story for people with ADHD who weren't diagnosed as children, so a specialist won't be particularly surprised by it.

The initial appointment is probably going to be an in-depth interview with the specialist, coupled with filling out some self-assessments and, possibly, getting somebody who knows you well to fill out an assessment as well. (Apparently people with ADHD usually drastically underestimate their own symptoms, which is why a third-party perspective is important.)

After I got diagnosed, the specialist gave me useful advice, learning materials and resources, including recommendations for psychiatrists to reach out to for treatment. This is pretty important because a combination of psychiatric treatment with learning new skills, coaching... works better than only doing one or the other.

If you can afford it or it works well with your insurance, I would highly recommend reaching out to a specialist instead of (or in addition to) talking to a normal doctor.

If you are like 30 and employed they don't dick you around about ADHD the way they do with college students

I'm glad you're doing that! Feel free to email me (mistergeorgespencer+HN@gmail.com) if it would be useful for you to hear more about my experience or for you to share some of what you're experiencing. I have an iCloud note with every shared symptom I see someone else describing on the web, and it's getting pretty huge -- and makes me super happy that other people have had the same experience.

I put off the diagnosis process for a year and regret it, but don't consider that a pressure for you to do it. If you have ADHD, one of the things you can't really know (in my experience) is the feeling of a balanced ability to focus and be productive. Feeling compelled to seek a diagnosis is a big step.

I had a lot of serious conversations with the doctor about the impact of medication, the causes of ADHD, potential neurotoxicity, neuronal elasticity, etc. before I committed to taking medication. Here if you want to talk!

Yes, do it now, make appointment today. Stop everything else and do it. If you have a doctor that hems and haws about it find another doctor. I got my diagnosis and prescription without any formal test. I have stopped seeing my psychiatrist but once a year since my general practice doctor decided they could fill my prescriptions. The medicine, even the expensive stuff, has payment help programs. Like print out a PDF payment help program easy.

If you want more pushing or personal story my email is in my profile. Best single thing I've done in my life to date.

There is definitely a deep, abiding sense of relief and peace at the fact that a lot of things which caused me pain in the past now make sense.

That doesn't help with the day-to-day of things, but it does contribute to an overall happiness which I do not think the medication alone would offer me.

Emotional relief like "I'm not a shitty selfish person after all and it isn't my fault".

But if you employ a tonne of ADHD coping mechanisms and they work for you it'll improve things a decent amount.

I haven't tried CBT but it's a recommend approach. I'm trying (painfully slowly because it's not super interesting) to teach myself DBT to help with it too.

Dx is only strictly required to get Rx but an additional benefit is they do a differential diagnosis so they make sure it isn't down to depression, anxiety, sleep problems, trauma etc. All of which can cause some of the same symptoms.

There are a tonne of people who get diagnosed with depression and anxiety and the recommended treatments just don't work that well for them. Then they get diagnosed with ADHD, everything falls into place and they can get their life together so they're not anxious they're going to constantly screw things up nor depressed from shit life syndrome and the depression and anxiety go away.

I was diagnosed with ADHD almost twenty years ago as a young adult. In my experience learning about how your mind works and spending time to come up with the best system and techniques to keep yourself on task is absolutely critical and should be worked on by any adult with ADHD. I would say that long-term it is more important than medication.

With that said, medication is also quite helpful. In my experience it provided a quick and independent support to my feeling better and productive. I found them critical when the controls I had built for myself proved insufficient or had collapsed. For example, when I moved from an office job to remote work I found the change and the lack of societal pressure to be focused on work left me in disarray. Medication helped me stand myself back up and find the routines and structures that worked in the new environment. As I built these support structures up I found the need for medication was reduced and stopped taking medication for many years. Years later, after a cross-country move which came with the loss of local friends and community I found it necessary to restart. I prefer to not take medication unnecessarily so one day I may be at the point where I stop taking them again, but I'm not there yet.

My advice would be to try medication if your gut says you need it but if you already feel fairly happy and productive then it may not be necessary.

Medication has been truly life-changing for me. The ability to actually follow through on things within a day is amazing.

To expand - why not use it to your advantage? Consultants for larger, competitive companies do well w/ ADHD. Leaders do well. Founders do well (if they can stay focused on the opportunity).

I have a CompSci degree, and loved doing algorithms, etc - but can't be bothered to sit behind an IDE for hours. So what - enough of people can do that well. I've found leadership to be the best use of skillsets where these 'symptoms' appear.

> I may be conflating ADHD with my incredibly independent personality

I think you are, to a degree. Serious ADHD is AWFUL to live with and there's barely any upside.

> I can't sit down for long - so I just stand in meetings.

It's nice that you can mitigate not being able to sit down for long by just standing, but for many people with ADHD, not being able to sit for long is more than just stance. It's because they can't focus on the task they need to do in front of them so they feel the urge to physically leave and seek out more interesting things.

Before I began medication, meetings were a nightmare to me. I was constantly zoning out every few seconds and absorbing absolutely nothing. Even if I did pay attention for a few seconds, I would forget everything a few minutes later. So I tried writing notes, but it became completely impossible to listen to people when I was actively writing. It was extremely humiliating to walk out of a 2 hour meeting knowing I wasted the entire thing.

> TV is a waste of time

Again, I think this is separate from ADHD. If anything, people with ADHD are more likely to seek out distractions. This does depend on the individual, though.

> I've just felt like the speed, risk tolerance, freedom it provides me, and intuition make a powerful combination.

Speed? It took me 3 days to find the motivation to fill out a simple 1-page form.

Risk tolerance? I think you may be referring to impulsiveness. The main difference is that being risk tolerant at least acknowledges the risk, while being impulsive means using an exciting new mental stimuli as an excuse to make rash decisions (often with poor consequences).

Freedom? ADHD is incredibly suffocating. It's wanting to start doing something but feeling overpowered and locked-up. It's wanting to achieve long-term goals but feeling like you're constantly self-sabotaging yourself. It's making a plan in the morning, being unable to accomplish anything during the day, and furiously kicking yourself at night in an endless cycle of self-hatred. For me, ADHD is the complete opposite of freedom. It's a prison.

I apologize if I'm disregarding your experience by citing my own experience. But please don't suggest people to not see a psychiatrist, or that ADHD isn't something to fix. For most people, ADHD is a constant and serious detriment to school, work, relationships, and just everyday life.

ADHD has a wide spectrum, people with real ADHD cannot function without medication ( speaking as a parent with a child who has it). Yes, without medication he would either be not focussed or hyper focussed. But, the biggest issue is lack of executive function, which is debilitating. And, no matter what, real life needs you to be able to follow instructions, and do things in order. If a 7 year old with a simple life cannot function, think what it can do to an adult? The medication helps, but it's a process, and you have to find the right one and the correct dosage. Added to that, you need a competent psychiatrist, we lucked out after a few tries. Basically what the medication is doing is strengthening the neural connections, so that executive function becomes a habit, to the point where you don't need it. If you do it right 50% of people with ADHD won't need it. And, you can be a genius but if you lack executive function, you can't do basic everyday things, let alone complex tasks. Somehow the media has started painting ADHD as some kind of superpower, when it's a serious debilitating condition.

After 30-odd years of feeling alone on this front, it's always lovely hearing that others have had similar experiences. Thank you!

Just because you don't have "ADHD" doesn't mean you don't have a problem. If someone is hesitating for the same reason you were, they should seek help because there is something wrong, even if it's not what they thought.

> I put off my diagnosis for years, because I was afraid. I was terrified I would be told I didn’t have ADHD — at which point I would have no answers or excuses any more. If it’s not ADHD (that I know I can treat), then what the hell else is wrong with me?

This is an amazing thing to share. Reading some of the other replies in this thread from folks who are now motivated to seek help because they experience the same range of symptoms others are expressing, I bet your comment is going to have a direct and positive impact on someone's life.

It's not easy to share things like this and folks will definitely feel supported by you. Thank you.

> But they’re a double-edged sword. Like another commenter says, overdoing them leads to one feeling like a shell of their former self.

I firmly believe that self-medicating in the manner your friend did exposes you to a heightened risk of this sort of experience. As noted elsewhere, there are so many variables to consider with the various medications that it really does require a committed, serious doctor to collaborate with you during titration. My journey so far has been four different drugs, with seven different dosages, and 4 different timed release / instant release formulations.

> I’ve had 3 appointments with a psychiatrist so far, and, finally, my prescription begins next week.

This is really wonderful news. I've found that the process of ironing out the right medication can be a frustrating one, because my doctor is a careful and methodical person and my instinct is to say "hey let's skip from 18mg to 54mg". No advice, but sharing my story just in case you experience the same thing. I've found that it has gotten a lot better, and I was surprised by the different experience of the different medications.

28 years old and just got diagnosed.

Do it - it makes a difference. I was amazed how much meds helped me. I'm far more productive doing tasks that are boring.

I got diagnosed at 29 also and had almost an identical experience to yours and the person above you. I often think of what a difference it would have made to know earlier (in so many ways).

>>Life is too short to waste time fighting against yourself

Str8 facts

> Getting diagnosed this year changed my life too.

This is awesome!

> following what works specifically for ADHD e.g externalize information, externalize decision making etc.

I bet everyone would love to hear a little more context around what this is, and how it impacted you, if you have the energy to share. (Me most of all!)

This was daunting for me too.

I had a series of private evaluations in London, and the proxy I used was to seek a consultant psychiatrist (just about as senior as they come) who had a longstanding relationship with his local NHS trust (hadn't jumped from one area to another), looked him up on the GMC (registry of doctors in the UK which would report malpractice or other issues), and asked for a telephone consultation to discuss his work in this area and his approach. I appreciate many of these will not be possible in SF, so I would try to move back in stages towards a person you trust. Do you have a good relationship with your regular doctor? If no, do you have a trustworthy friend who does? Etc.

> I think #2 is actually great.

Remember that there are a range of intensities to all of these symptoms!

A lot of people I know find that leaving things to the last minute can help them focus and they're good at assessing the time required to deliver something high quality.

For me it results in disaster more often than not.

> University taught me that failure is okay, which removed the trigger for me. End result was that things got even worse.

Ah sorry to hear that. Do you generally exhibit other symptoms consistent with others in this thread, or do you think it's just one area which you suffer in?

So glad you're in a better place now. This:

> To anyone else struggling: Just make that appointment and find out what's up. Even if it doesn't turn out to be ADHD these people can help you get so much more out of your life. Nothing ventured nothing gained, right?

Is great advice and lots of people reading this thread are emailing me to say how supported they feel by hearing others' stories. Nice one for sharing.

> We do easy things even though we're not motivated.

Ah, I see you are, at best, an amateur level procrastinator :)

Made an account just so I can thank you for this comment. You have done an amazing job of illustrating the problem of thinking of things in terms of motivation as well as moralizing it.

I'm going through a major depressive / procrastination episode. And now i'm asking myself, why can't I just apply the same thinking and approach I use for exercise and diet to the rest of my life. (I.E. it's just something I do, a habit I build on.). Epiphany for me. :)

This sounds like a hack, but after doing it for long enough, you realize it's just a much-needed refactoring.

"Doing the dishes" is made up of individual actions, guys. If the outcome of your actions is that your sink is "mostly clean, but has a bowl in it," that's...just fine!

Not only did it fail replication studies (as most psychology experiments do), but on a model analysis level it vastly oversimplifies things. The mind is a lot more complicated than growth vs. fixed mindset.

https://twitter.com/DegenRolf/status/1283631188608004097?s=2...

The big problem with growth mindset isn't the mindset itself, it's the theoretical framework and the broader milieu surrounding it. It would be one thing if the concept were simply put forward as a way of framing and thinking about certain differences in how people learn in certain contexts. But there's apparently now a faction of education experts who have decided that growth mindset is Right and fixed mindset is Wrong, and so we're failing children if we don't "educate" them into having a growth mindset. Even if that means totally ignoring their lived experience and making them fill in a bunch of worksheets that are basically just "Goofus and Gallant" for beliefs instead of actions.

What's your site?

Or just repeat the small task 26 times

What if you framed those 2 problems (having to catch up and not wanting to realize you watched too much Netflix) as self imposed goals? Then you'd have to answer the question: why do you feel the need to catch up (unless not catching up leads to consequences that would make you feel even worse and from which you cannot recover)? Why do you feel like spending most of the time on Netflix or Steam is a waste of time?

What if the need to set an arbitrary goal and the need to achieve it were just a way to cope with the fact that we are not genuinely interested in having any (at the moment)? And what's wrong with that?

> in their right mind

The making of slides (or sentences in a paper) gets easier with practice. The advisor or collaborator or you yourself being too busy is, unfortunately, not something that gets better with time. The most important thing is learning to say "no" to new responsibilities without becoming an irresponsible member of whatever organization (university, research lab, etc) you find yourself in. It's a balancing act.

Yeah, my bad. I mis-remembered. Thanks for clarifying!

See my other comment in this thread. I think the model's lack of consideration for "mental exhaustion" means it's incomplete.

Do you never find yourself doing things that after you’ve done it, you realise you shouldn’t have?

I find procrastination is sometimes a sign that my subconscious has realised i’d be better delegating or rejecting something rather than doing it BUT my consciousness hasn’t realised that yet.

Resolve is my last choice for things i’m procrastinating. It comes after questions like: maybe i really do want to do this and i just haven’t considered why

I disagree, and that's a common reply. Making decisions and taking action are not the same as 'attempting to control' anything. And the idea here is obviously not 'limitations are not real', the idea is 'you make the decision you can and you take the best action you can'.

Example: you want to run a mile, but you have a foot deformity that makes it extremely difficult. That's fine. Decide to stand up. Now, decide to walk around the block. Can't do that? That's fine. Decide to stand up. Now, walk to the curb and back. Do it three times a day. Can't do that? That's fine. Stand up. Repeat.

Do you understand? Fundamentally, you will always have the ability to choose, even if that's no more than choosing how to respond to the limits you're under. You always have the ability to take action, even if that's no more than how you think.

> I feel like telling ADHD people to "just do it" is like telling a depressed person to "just be happy"

That is literally what it is like. You are asking someone with a neurodevelopmental disorder which results in disregulation of various brain functions to behave like a person WITHOUT a neurodevelopmental disorder which results in disregulation of various brain functions. The person literally cannot.

:) yes