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Comment by lordnacho | Hacker News Reader

Maybe someone who knows about how shipping works can explain why they thought it was a good idea to keep a huge amount of ammonium nitrate in the port? Why not keep the ship offshore somewhere, or in some harbour that isn't in a metropolis?

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Unlike a lot of explosives, ammonium nitrate doesn't go off in anything goes wrong; it requires a few things to go wrong at the same time. Thus, storing huge amounts of it is safe enough for lots of people to do it, and consequently for those large storage amounts to litter the list of largest explosions.

Another common feature of ammonium nitrate explosions is how the procedures they were following didn't cause any problems the last several times they followed it. The Oppau explosion, for example, found that dynamiting their ammonium nitrate/ammonium sulfate mixture to loosen it caused a massive explosion that didn't occur the previous 30,000 times they did it.

Still, dynamiting something that is explosive generally sounds like a bad idea…

and it seems they actually knew it. from wikipedia "Two months earlier, at Kriewald, then part of Germany, 19 people had died when 30 tonnes of ammonium nitrate detonated under similar circumstances. It is not clear why this warning was not heeded"

Part of the problem with Oppau was that they were dynamiting a 50/50 mixture of ammonium nitrate and ammonium sulfate, which they thought was safe. It turned out that dynamiting such a mixture isn't safe after all.

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2017/03/03/ho...

As always, safety regulations are written in blood.

>How tons of ammonium nitrate were stranded in Beirut port for years

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/05/europe/lebanon-russian-sh...

The nitrate was seized from an African ship in 2013 and had been in storage ever since. Beirut Customs made multiple attempts to get it re-exported, but for some reason no one in government took action.

Not an African ship, Russian/Ukrainian owned through a shell company in Cyprus, exporting ammonium nitrate from Georgia to a destination in Mozambique. Shipping company went belly up and stranded the crew and ship in Beirut in 2014, the crew eventually went home and left the ship behind for the Lebanese government to deal with.

Very detailed response!

CNN article linked in same thread. Extensive media reports from 2014 in Russian/Ukrainian media when the ship was seized. It was a minor human interest story because the crew was stranded for 10+ months with no operating funds and no salary.

This isn't some sort of obscure conspiracy theory, all of what the GP said was and is being very widely reported on. The name of the ship is the Rhosus.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/rhosus-beirut-ni...

Given the exact phrasing of the GP (cities/countries, route of ship) it is important to provide sources.

I genuinely had no idea and wanted to learn more. This indicates to me that it is perhaps not common knowledge as you claim.

I agree that I should have perhaps written a more detailed response requesting sources in a different way, especially if you're comparing my understanding to conspiracy theories.

Don't be lazy asking for citations for things you can easily lookup on Google. It is not the job of people on HN to do your research for you.

Note, the parent edited their post. It was just "citation needed".

I disagree for two reasons: 1. If you're making bold claims then you should ideally back them up (wouldn't the internet be better this way?); And 2. If you've done "research" then part of that would entail sharing your "findings" i.e. providing sources.

It's not about being lazy, it's about wanting a better internet experience. Making claims without backing them up doesn't sit well with me.

I think the ammonium nitrate was confiscated and customs put it in a warehouse thinking it would be moved asap. But then no one moved it.

Yep - the Wikipedia page has some more context:

> Various customs officials had sent letters to judges requesting a resolution to the issue of the confiscated cargo, proposing that the ammonium nitrate either be exported, given to the Lebanese army, or sold to the private Lebanese Explosives Company.[e][14] Letters had been sent on 27 June and 5 December 2014, 6 May 2015, 20 May and 13 October 2016, and 27 October 2017.[14] One of the letters sent in 2016 noted that judges had not replied to previous requests, and "pleaded":[14]

>> In view of the serious danger of keeping these goods in the hangar in unsuitable climatic conditions, we reaffirm our request to please request the marine agency to re-export these goods immediately to preserve the safety of the port and those working in it, or to look into agreeing to sell this amount

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Beirut_explosions#MV_Rhos...

Corruption and incompetence beyond comprehension. Hopefully serves as a turning point for a new form of management in the country

I hope, but their economy is imploding and it's not a good time for Lebanon overall.

Corrupt officials would happily auction it. This is stranger.

Its hygroscopic, stored next to the water, in a poor country. It was likely unsellable within weeks. Or, to be blunt, every undamaged package was probably already sold within weeks. Once the remainder amalgamates into a giant lump, its an environmental remediation problem that'll cost money, not a make money fast sales scam. That's the whole point of why historically explosives were used to crack chunks apart.

There are apparently photos and videos of the confiscated ammonium nitrate, in forklift-size bags, in video from Ukrainian media in 2014 when the ship was abandoned in Beirut.

One of the photos: https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/XCLpJqhpk68aHsAKkvosmw--/Y...

Nitroprill HD material datasheet:

https://twitter.com/ArmsControlWonk/status/12907955327014256...

Typically ammonium nitrate needs some type of fuel to detonate. In the Texas City explosion there was ample hydrocarbons in direct contact with the AN to support the reaction. I’m curious if there is any speculation what provided the fuel in this case. Maybe they were coated prills?

Ammonium nitrate does not require fuel to be explosive: it's explosive on its own, fuel just makes it more efficient.

Thanks for the info! I had no idea.

Ammonium nitrate is a high explosive all on it's own, but not a very good one. It's a very insensitive explosive and tends to absorb water from the atmosphere, so fuel oil is added to make it a more efficient and stable explosive.

Thanks for the info!!!

Ammonium nitrate does not require fuel to detonate. Even if you add heavy diesel, you will still be need to use the same boosters (usually PETN) that you would use for pure ammonium nitrate to achieve reliable detonation. Ammonium nitrate has a positive stoichiometric oxygen balance when it detonates so it is typically mixed with chemicals with a negative oxygen balance (such as heavy diesel) to inexpensively improve explosive performance. It has nothing to do with making it detonate.

While ammonium nitrate is quite difficult to detonate at room temperature, it becomes considerably less stable as it approaches its melting point, which is relatively low. Sensitivity can also be increased chemically but that requires significant effort and intent.

Wow, for some reason I always thought if it as a pure oxidizer (obviously not a chemistry expert here) and had no idea that it could detonate on its own. Great info, thank you!!!

The US CSB video[0] on the incident at West, Texas is worth watching. Every video they do is worth watching to understand how processes can fail.

0: https://www.csb.gov/videos/dangerously-close-explosion-in-we...

Their website was itermittently 500ing for me, but the video was just embedded from youtube anyway so here's a direct link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdDuHxwD5R4

In a lot of videos you can see a fire next to the storage facility. It was also a very hot day. So most people believe the temperature in the storage raised enough to make the ammonium nitrate unstable.

Melting point: 169.6 °C

my understanding is that it had been warehoused at the port for years, not on a ship.

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