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Comment by move-on-by | Hacker News Reader

I am personally hoping this change will generate more evidence that targeted advertising is not as valuable as everyone believes. _I believe_ contextual advertising is effective and doesn't come with all the privacy nightmares and ethical issues like allowing targeting alcoholics with alcohol ads. Of course, that is just my own personal opinion. I've seen some articles agreeing with what I just said - but not being a statistician or even in the advertising industry I'm not qualified to say one way or the other.

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I am an advertiser that uses targeted advertising and contextual advertising.

There are some products and services that absolutely require targeting by preferences to maximize profit.

I'm running such a campaign now and getting wildly high ROI's in the 14X range.

If I couldn't target by audience interest, I'd be happy to get an ROI that is a tenth of that.

> There are some products and services that absolutely require targeting by preferences to maximize profit.

As a normal person who just wants to use his phone without creepy crap going on, I don't care—and see zero benefit if your profits are maximized.

Your profit seeking wishes are not my concern.

They were replying on the subject of whether targeted ads are effective or not. Whether they should be allowed is a different matter, but while companies are collecting your data it's not reasonable to ask advertisers to disadvantage themselves against competition by not using the marketing options with the highest ROI.

Send your complaints to politicians, not ad buyers.

(Disclaimer: I've spent millions - not my own money - on ads in my career. I'd support better privacy regulations to prevent some of the targeting I've been able to use.)

Politicians either don't care or can't get changes passed. Until that changes blaming and shaming does and will continue to work, at least better that my elected officials who'd ratherdo anything but challenge their largest donors profits.

> I'm running such a campaign now and getting wildly high ROI's in the 14X range.

Are you able to prove they wouldn't have bought anyway?

"50% of my marketing dollars are wasted, the problem is, I don't know which 50%"

But targeted advertising is expensive because it is controlled by 2 companies alone. OTOH untargeted advertising is much cheaper, with tons of unmonetized inventory, however there doesn't seem to be much willingness to take up on that.

Why would I care if you can't use marketing psychology dark patterns to take advantage of me to give you money? It seems like watching this industry fail would be better for my well being.

Interesting. But can you distinguish between the effects of contextual advertising (ad depends on the content around it) and targeted advertising (ad depends on the person viewing it)?

So if businesses like you cannot hyper target, you’ll spend more money right? Won’t this actually increase Facebook’s revenues then?

like I care your bullshit profit

The implication of that would be nothing less than a collapse of multiple tech giants. Ad money, redirected from old media, subsidizes a content economy from which all of them, even apple benefits.

If Google and Facebook died or changed their business model, why should I care? I pay for Apple devices because the transaction is clean - I give them money and they give me stuff.

The same for Microsoft with O365 and subscriptions streaming services.

apple's bestselling devices though are content consumption devices, and people spend most of their times in social apps there. That entire ecosystem is dependent on ads, and in particular on the advantage of having targeted ads, which is what made G & FB rich

Good. Capitalism decrees that a company founded on a faulty or unsustainable business model should collapse and be replaced by better alternatives. The sooner the market realizes an error and corrects itself the better.

> targeted advertising is not as valuable as everyone believes

> privacy nightmares and ethical issues like allowing targeting alcoholics with alcohol ads

These two statements are diametrically opposing each other. Either targeted advertising works or it doesn't. You can't say that it isn't valuable and then raise concerns about how it causes privacy nightmares and alcoholics to buy more alcohol.

Alcoholics will buy more alcohol either ways. Targeting makes no difference to their behavior really. But your argument holds no ground because alcohol ads are highly regulated. You can read more about why here: [1]. More often than not advertising companies reject alcohol ads as it hurts their business more than it helps (due to stringent regulations in most parts of the World). It is not as easy as you make it out to be. Else your social media pages should be inundated with alcohol ads. It is not.

I strongly believe that there should be regulations on the content of the ads that are pushed out (just like the alcohol ads). There should be regulation on how often an ad can be retargeted and to ensure that the placements don't hamper user productivity. Blanket bans on advertising methods just for sake of privacy is going to do more harm than good. There has to be some sort of a balance. For people who want privacy they can opt for privacy focused social networks. But if entire platforms move towards privacy then the advertising industry will collapse completely. Targeted advertising is the cheapest way for small and medium businesses to get new customers. It levels the playing field with corporations with big pockets. If you move towards privacy as a focus point with no proper alternatives to advertising it will cause a major shakeup. Many businesses will shutdown. You'll have more consolidation and less competition. Only those with big pockets can advertise their products/services. And in the post-Corona World, this is a lifeline to many small businesses.

[1]: https://support.google.com/adspolicy/answer/6012382?hl=en

As a disclaimer, I work at a different company that makes a lot of revenue from advertising.

However, I think people should try turning off Personalized Ads on Youtube and watching a few videos (without adblock!). IMO it's fucking awful, even compared to regular targeted ads. You'll get the same crappy Trump "socialism survey" 6 times in a row because there's no tracking of ad viewer fatigue.

When I do that that I get political adverts mixed in with meal-kits, diets (I'm not sure what they're trying to sell), and exercise equipment. It's pretty awful and I'm waiting down the seconds to hit skip. It's like going back in time to pop-ups and animated horrors of the 90s and early 00s but with vlog-style ads instead--I guess this style tests well, they all look the same to me.

Instagram does a great job of personalizing ads to both products and the type of companies I like. I don't mind seeing these kinds of ads at all. I'm happy (in this case) for them to track me because it's much much, better than the alternative.

>I'm happy (in this case) for them to track me because it's much much, better than the alternative.

You're acting like there is only one alternative, but what about blocking ads? That's win-win for everyone but the advertiser. And really that makes it win-win-win, unless you work in advertising or for Facebook/Google.

> You're acting like there is only one alternative, but what about blocking ads? That's win-win for everyone but the advertiser. And really that makes it win-win-win, unless you work in advertising or for Facebook/Google.

Win-win for who? If everyone uses adblockers you will have major unemployment. All small and medium businesses will shutdown as advertising is the cheapest mechanism to reach customers. Without advertising these businesses will have to rely on billboard advertising and TV ads. Both are extremely expensive in comparison to internet advertising. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. As simple as that!

>All small and medium businesses will shutdown

What a load of beans. However did the world survive until these selfless internet advertisers came along to save small and medium business?

The world did not have trillion dollar companies and billion dollar startups form within a span of few years either. Nor did small and medium businesses have the reach they do now. You can literally sell goods to people all over the World from your basement. You don't need a warehouse nor complicated advertising agreements with Media networks and advertise your business on billboards. Believe it or not, internet advertising became a powerful tool for small and medium businesses which they never had pre-internet era and were forced to serve only their local communities. Today the same businesses have a worldwide reach to sell their products and services. It is surprising that I have to explain this to someone who is from the tech field!

There is absolutely no difference to me between a crappy trump ad and an ad for anything else. I'm always waiting to hit the skip button when I'm at a friend's house with out ad nauseum installed with no regard for the content behind it

When you lock the chicken coop door at night, I have to kick it open, and that hurts the chickens. If you just leave it open all night, then I wont' have to kick it open, and no one will get hurt (well at least from me kicking the door open.)

What in God's name are you doing to my chickens???

Exactly! There is a reason why personalized ads are a thing. You are not shown stuff that you have no interest in! Removing targeting is basically asking for watching ads that don't align with your interests at all! I rather give my mind space to ads that are relevant to me than watch an ad that I have absolutely no interest in! Not only is it a waste of my time, is exhausting but also a big waste of money.

> I rather give my mind space to ads that are relevant to me than watch an ad that I have absolutely no interest in!

I don't understand this attitude. Do you like being advertised to? I don't. I find advertising repugnant, and I'd much rather see ads that are irrelevant to me because they're easier to ignore and I'm less likely to be affected by them.

With targeted ads I'm at risk of being influenced. I don't want to be influenced by ads.

> I find advertising repugnant

You can't do business without advertising. Are you for shutting down small and medium businesses? If you are employed find out how your company gets clients and acquires customers. It is mostly through advertising. And if they don't, the clients they depend on for orders do. It is a chain and if that chain gets disrupted everyone suffers. I don't understand why anyone would find the concept of advertising repugnant! Sure there are horrible ads and then there are scammy ways of advertising. Those should be regulated. But to put the entire advertising landscape under the bus is totally not acceptable!

> I'd much rather see ads that are irrelevant to me because they're easier to ignore and I'm less likely to be affected by them

I bet majority of the people find ads that are not relevant repugnant. I hate it when I am recommended an ad that I have no interest in, over and over again. To the point where I turn off whatever I am reading/watching. Why would I sit through watching an ad for 15 seconds that is irrelevant to me?

> I don't want to be influenced by ads.

Use adblock.

> Exactly! There is a reason why personalized ads are a thing. You are not shown stuff that you have no interest in!

I foolishly believed that. I gave Google every chance under the sun: clicked not interested, verified my ad preferences, waited another month etc.

For over 10 years they have showed me ads for scammy dating sites!

Someone will typically come to their defense and say basically: Google know what they are doing.

They do not!

They refuse to understand that a father of more than three kids - all with the same mother - isn't interested in scammy dating sites.

Well, maybe on average it works?

Well maybe on average I get so fed up I start to inform scammy dating sites that they are getting ripped off. The volume seems to have decreased lately, but I mostly use an adblocker so what do I know ;-)

So for anyone who pays Google for views: be aware that their targetting is painfully bad, their feedback systems so broken that they seemingly cannot take a clue if it came gift wrapped and so big it needs a truck for delivery. Keep an eye on the metrics guys and gals.

It still makes sense economically for many companies but be very critical, because Google is not.

Edit: to rub it in: Facebook manages to personalize ads! Again and again I get ads that are relevant and interesting. I've even bought through Instagram ads. Which is a shame since I dislike Facebook even more intensely than Google and only keep an Instagram profile to keep my lovely wife happy. I deliberately keep my contact with Facebook small and yet they seem to know exactly what I am interested in and what not.

> Well maybe on average I get so fed up I start to inform scammy dating sites

I notice I got carried away yesterday:

I did not inform them one by one, but rather by publically writing about it, at least here on HN.

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